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 Post subject: C&O 2700
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:36 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:04 am
Posts: 665
Location: Northeast Ohio
Since the first C&O 2700 thread has been locked (why?), I am starting this new thread to continue this interesting discussion.

To the poster known as 2700 Owners:
From my understanding from your post and from reading the appellate briefs, Mr. Kallas has 1/3 ownership interest in the locomotive, William Dean 1/3 interest and Mike Muncy 1/3 interest. However you also state that the locomotive is owned by the 2700 Preservation and Restoration Society, a non profit. Guidestar.org does not have that organization listed. Its not listed as a West Virginia corporation, not registered as a West Virginia charity, and not listed in IRS publication 78. Does this organization actually exist or is merely a DBA for Mr. Dean and Mr. Muncy?

You may have a legitimate claim for the 2/3 ownership of the 2700. Do you intend to pursue that claim by filing a new lawsuit against the Dennison group? Should you be victorious in your suit what are your plans for this locomotive? After paying legal fees and moving costs would you have the resources to reassemble this locomotive?

Would it be publicly displayed? Where? Would the both of you finally turn over ownership to a true non profit so that 2700 supporters could contribute to its care?

I hope that the moderators will allow this very important and ON TOPIC discussion to continue. I really have no idea what their agenda is, or why they would choose to prevent this discussion to continue.


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2700
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:47 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2438
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
While I really shouldn't be wading into another steam locomotive ownership dispute, let me take this time to provide some free legal advice.

To begin with, a disclaimer. I don't have any interest in this fight. What follows below are just my observations. They are my own, and should not be construed as the opinions, official or otherwise, of any organization I may be identified with. I'm just stating my own opinion.

If you think you have a legitimate claim to the 2700, don't waste your time on this form, and by setting up a web site. My recomendation is that you hire a compotent attorney, who is admitted to the state bar of Ohio to pursue your claim. Making accusations on this, or any other forum will do you no good. What we think doesn't matter. The other parties to this little matter have seen fit to litigate their claims in a court of compotent jurisdiction. Why you haven't, even after raising this issue many months ago, is beyond me. You use a lot of "legal-like" words, but until you actually take steps with an attorney to protect what you feel are your rights, you are just wasting time. Saying that a post is "putting people" on notice has no legal effect. Quit wasting your time with this board if your claim is legitimate. You could convince each and every one of us that you are correct, and it would do you no good.

Also, throwing around terms as "larceny" and "fraud" are not helpful. Identifying specific people by name, and accusing them of illegal activity in a public form can, at best, open you up to personal legal liability. Once again, if you believe larceny or fraud is taking place, take those matters up in court, with an attorney, not on this forum.

Finally, the boil-down is the same advice I gave over the DL&W 952 dispute, if you think you have a legitimate legal claim, seek the advice of a compotent attorney, who practices in the jurisdiction in question. All of the sound and fury on RYPN or the Internet won't be able to help you, and may actually hurt your case as you sit and dither.

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David M. Wilkins

"They Love Him for the Enemies He Has Made!"


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2700
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:16 pm 

Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 5:36 pm
Posts: 6
Dear Stationary,
I am aware that the thread was locked. I have no understanding why, since this is a hot button issue.
Could it be that there are those who do not want the truth to come out.
Dean and I are aggrieved parties in this matter and the Rail Fans need to know the truth.
You are correct that the 2700 Preservation and Restoration Society, Inc. charter was revoked for non-fileing of records. That is a fact of public record at the WV Secretary of State Office.
If you Google the (wvsos.gov), the West Virginia Secretary of State you will find that the corporation was formed on February 19, 1982 and was terminated on December 1, 2008. When the search box opens click on corporate search and then enter the whole word (Saint Albans), the Saint Albans 2700 Preservation and Restoration Society, Incorporated should appear as the first Item. If you need more information, you can call the West Virginia Secretary of State as 304-558-6000 and ask questions or directions from clerk. Please note that the search engine for the State of West Virginia is case sensitive and requires the input data to be very specific. Most people do not know that the legal name begins with the whole name Saint Albans. If you abbreviate or use 2700, you will not find it.
Anyone seeking information may also go to the Charleston Newspapers (Gazette and Charleston Daily Mail) website and search the plethora of articles regarding the engine and the law suit in Kanawha county where we prevailed.
The internal workings of the company are not published except for references to reports filed for the years of 95-96 & 97.
I do however have copies of the corporate charter, minutes and other records in my archives.
We would be interested in working with any 501-(c)-3 that has the resources to undertake such a project as the restoration of the “City of St Albans”—K 2700.
I am very terse and have my records in order with regard to filing appropriate civil actions to protect our interests. Obviously I have gotten under someone’s skin which has promulgated a complaint.
You can always go to the ( www.alco2700.com ) website. We have nothing to hide.
I will be posting any and all documentation and correspondence at that site and will open a blog if this forum wants to protect some special interest.
As the preachers say,,,,, “my brother, the truth will set you free!”
This is America. We have Freedom of Speech.
You or anyone else who has an interest is welcome to email my personal account : pmuncy2006@yahoo.com or my 909-549-7110 Cell during reasonable hours, East Coast Time Zone.
Likewise, Dean can be reached at drdallied@aol.com and his home phone is 304-727-9372.
Dr. Dean is president of the Saint Albans Historical Society who owns a historical building beside the Saint Albans Depot. They would be interested in supporting us to bring the engine back to its home in Saint Albans, Kanawha County, West Virginia.
I don’t like to tip my hand or come across as threatening, but with that said, rest assured that we were only waiting on the decision of the Stark County Fifth District in order to form our attack on this issue.
There has only been plausible and often erroneous information circulated about the engine. WE have the documentation. I applaud those of you who are interested in the outcome of this engine. I also applaud BB2666 for opening the thread and attempting to and to the best of his ability and knowledge to talk about the benefits of this engine. However, the facts are the facts. The engine title passed to the 2700 Preservation and Restoration. We did not sell our vested interests. We at least own the 2/3rds interest you speak of.
We are not real sure that Nick Kallas bought anything, but that is a matter for the court to decide.
I believe we all want to see the “City of St Albans” 2700 ride the rails once again,,,,,, even if CSX doesn’t want steam, NS does, so I am sure we could find trackage if she ever gets to breath again in my lifetime. I have been involved with this engine since 1986.
I have been working with other businessmen who want to use the engine in service as a promotion for Clean Coal Related Technology. Without going further, I believe that I can muster the funds to see the engine restored within the next five years. The problem with restoration is that the engine has been cannibalized, without our sanctions, and it is hard to tell what can be recovered. After we won the law suit against S.T.E.A.M. in 91, they would not cooperate in helping us recover the parts that they had removed. It’s a sad day that we have to keep defending our title to this engine.
I will be converting the Court Decisions from Kanawha County and Stark County 1991 to PDF files and will post them on the www.alco2700.com website. Make your own decisions as informed persons, not what someone has blithered about who was not involved. There is no place you will find that we (Dean or Muncy) ever sold our interests. David Bailey sold his interests to Nick Kallas. The court record underpins. Show me where we/I were/was remunerated for all the work I did or enjoyed some benefit for those services and I will shut – up. Bailey was compensated.
Show me where someone has carried off my asset and have been uncooperative and tried to convert it by hook or crook and I will show you a fight.
As always, we are available for communication by phone, email , and in person. We would always be interested in including the public and rail fans in the process.
I laugh when I read the comments ,,,, let grudges pass and help the new people who have an interest. My friend this is business. Plain and Simple, we own the controlling interest and when that is properly addressed, we can move forward.


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2700
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:49 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5252
Location: southeastern USA
What seems missing from my understanding, based on nothing more than what has been posted, is the chain of documented, legally plausable reality that links the assets of a dissolved corporation to two or three specific individuals who might or might not have been in any sense legal receivers of whatever the defunct corporations assets were. The more I read, the muddier it gets........and the more it seems that nobody was watching the store for far too long.

I don't have a dog in the fight over this pile of bones, but hope for all concerned that whoever ends up with the hardware does well by it. And, no, railfans don't need to know the truth or whichever version of it any particular faction promotes. We don't matter and have no influence in any case. Wake us up when it's over.

dave

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"Techies never minded eating bits and jots of their work. They were grit and grease inside and out and could turn a pile of junk into a magical kingdom."

Andrea Hairston


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2700
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:35 pm 

Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 5:36 pm
Posts: 6
Dear wilkinsd;
I appreciate your sage advice.
Let me state that I believe in Steam Railroading and I respect you specifically for your interest as well as all of you other rail fans. I well understand that this matter may come to a civil action. However, I believe that your right as rail fans to know the facts that have long be covered needs the light of day. In addition, I thank you for the cautions regarding words which have certain strong connotations. I am aware of the statutes regarding libel and slander and it is difficult to win a case against someone who is only the messenger of facts.
That said, I am also aware that it would save me several hundred dollars if I had to answer a complaint and file therewith a cross-complaint, as opposed to being the first one to the court house.
With regard to “putting people on notice”, I full well understand the service of process and that issue will be dealt with at a time between now and the “cake festival” slated for the 2700 Day. You can still send in your $27.00 and get your beautiful print if you want but, I will seek to have it escrowed until such time this matter is at rest.
It was not until Kallas and Dennison started fighting over the engine did it necessitate any intervention. Set me affirm that we would have worked with Kallas, who is reputable, or Dennison to protect and preserve our asset. To do otherwise would not do the engine any good. An attempt to convert our asset, under whatever guise, must be dealt with properly.
However, too much misinformation and half truths have circulated for too long. I dare say that very few people on this forum even knew the name 2700 Preservation and Restoration Society, or Bill Dean or Mike Muncy.
All of the accounts I have read over the years have usually mentioned the St Albans firefighters, but I can never recall any one mentioning the Saint Albans 2700 Preservation and Restoration Society, Incorporated or how the parties came to allow the engine to be leased to S.T.E.A.M.
It is my belief that when rail fans learn the truth we will all be better off.
Moreover, I respect public opinion, as long as the parties are armed with facts.
Until the law suit was filed between Kallas and Dennison, we were satisfied that the engine was safe. No one has ever challenged us and we felt the engine was best served on display for “Safe Keeping” until we found interested parties who wanted to restore the engine.
Well my friend, they are not going to keep ignoring us and the issue is ripe given the machinations and misinformation that was fed to the lower court in Tuscawarus County. Everyone conveniently forgot to do any due diligence and notify us, as interested parties or potentially parties, that they were embroiled in a squabble. As you are learning there is much more to the ownership issue than just a simple issue between Dennison and Nick Kallas.
Poor ole Nick was ostensibly operating under the premise that he was the sole owner of the engine. When I learned of the dispute, I offered to shoulder a portion of the defense costs, but I learned of the dispute after the lower court had made its ruling. I learned about the dispute through a newspaper article in the Dennison Local Paper that heralded that Dennison had won the engine in a court battle. My question was simple: How could a judge rule on that issue when we, as owners were never placed on notice and given our constitutional right to defend.
In reading the transcripts, I understood that the “truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth” was only told to fit the wants of the parties.
It would take very little research to learn who was involved and how the engine came to be in Ohio in the first place. It didn’t fall off a tree and land there. S.T.E.A.M. had to go through us to get it there and this was by a legal document known as a LEASE, not a Bill of Sale.
Ohio Law regarding abandonment is specific and is stipulated to in the Court Decision. At no time did the actions of William Dean or Mike Muncy fall into this definition. I am sure many local people will be disappointed to see the “City of St Albans” 2700 move from Dennison. But the matter of fact is we control the majority interest. And---we intend to defend that interest.
Thanks again for your interest in the matter.
PMM


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2700
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:47 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2438
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
I don't think there is any nefarious motives in locking the previous forum. While, you may, as you say have a right to free speech, this forum is a private forum, and the First Amendment does not apply. Unfortunately, a little knowledge of the law is a dangerous thing.

That being said, my guess is that the forum was locked because you accused others of fraud and larceny, which are criminal acts. This is a blatant violation of the terms of service. I'm sure the owners and moderators of this forum would be happy to host your posts, as long as you refrain from alleging criminal activity by people you name by name.

When you have the law on your side, argue the law, when you have the facts on your side, argue the facts. When you have neither, pound on the table and yell. So far, you've done the third. Hire an attorney, and argue this in its proper forum.

If you are alleging a defense of truth to your allegations that the Dennison group is acting criminally and with malice "in their hearts" then I caution you. Good luck proving that they had malice in their hearts.

Ohio Revised Statutes Chapter 2739.01 Libel and Slander
In an action for a libel or slander, it is sufficient to state, generally, that the defamatory matter was published or spoken of the plaintiff. If the allegation is denied, the plaintiff must prove the facts, showing that the defamatory matter was published or spoken of him. In such action it is not necessary to set out any obscene word, but it is sufficient to state its import.

Ohio Revised Statutes Chapter 2739.02 Defenses to Actions of Libel and Slander
In an action for a libel or a slander, the defendant may allege and prove the truth of the matter charged as defamatory. Proof of the truth thereof shall be a complete defense. In all such actions any mitigating circumstances may be proved to reduce damages.

Like Mr. Lathrop, wake me up when this is over.

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David M. Wilkins

"They Love Him for the Enemies He Has Made!"


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2700
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:55 pm 

Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 5:36 pm
Posts: 6
Dave,
Sorry I am boreing you. I will wake you up when this is over and even buy the sand blaster that will be custom fitted to your hand,,,,
PM Muncy


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2700
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:45 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2077
I have said it before, I hope the current owners find the way to restore the engine, I thought the courts resolved the ownership, there isnt a need to bring any ownership questions to this forum. What is interesting is there is interest in the engine and in any case no scrappers torch will be hitting it. But if there is an ensuing fight about it, the only other resolvement would be to scrap it and be done with the battle. That I don't want and I don't want a Dick Jensen repeat.

If there is an appeal to the court decision ongoing so be it, but for now support the dennison group and lets hope for the best, but I don't want the ordeal if such to divide people up in this great railfan and preservation effort.

cheers


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2700
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:09 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:04 am
Posts: 665
Location: Northeast Ohio
My hand was just slapped for restarting this thread, but I just do not understand why it has become taboo to discuss the C&O 2700 and its current ownership problems. I would have thought that the saga of the 2700 would serve as a great lesson to those of us who may have equipment out on lease and/or sitting on someone else's railroad for long periods of time. I dunno. Didn't mean to cause any trouble. I just had a lot of unanswered questions about the issue. Isn't RYPN here to have discussions about substantive issues such as these?


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2700
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:28 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8354
Location: Baltimore, MD
It is possible to discuss the issues surrounding this seemingly "abandoned" steamer and the recent court findings without making accusations or writing possible libel, as "2700 Owners" seem to be intent on doing.

In any contentious issue such as this, there usually tend to be at least three sides. In this case it would be "2700 Owners," those affiliated with the Dennison museum, and then there's the truth.

I would caution "2700 Owners" that, inasmuch as they may be trying to state their side of the story to gain support for their cause, such "publicity" done in a poor or amateurish fashion can make even those who are completely right and honest about the issues look foolish, unsophisticated, and/or ignorant. It certainly may not be fair to judge people negatively based only on poor communications skills, but it happens.

I have seen enough ugly, contentious issues raised regarding joint locomotive ownership, storage, usage, etc. that I would NEVER attempt to own a locomotive anymore, unless I also owned the railroad and enough real estate upon which to store it. (Even though I technically am "part owner" of three diesel locomotives, as a Life Member of one ownership group.....)


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2700
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:53 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 7:57 am
Posts: 2355
Location: Faulkland, Delaware
Reminder from your moderators. This is straight from the guidelines.

Quote:
Controversial Topics

From time to time, topics will inspire controversy among INTERCHANGE participants. In moderating such discussions, moderators will focus primarily on facilitating the continued polite exchange of fact-based information within the focus defined in the mission statement. Posts that moderators believe may incite further discussion and/or debate away from the stated focus shall be subject to immediate moderation. Controversial posts and discussions on topics identified in the focus shall be allowed if they comply with the terms set forth in the INTERCHANGE guidelines.


Refrain from inflammatory statements and personal attacks. A topic will be locked and posts deleted when this happens.

Tom Gears
Moderator


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2700
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:53 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2077
I have but one reflection about the issue about the ownership squabble, the "unowner" may persue all the legal squabble and be rich enough to throw any kind of money and motivation about it. This seems more a crybaby attitude pouting around. Sorry state of affairs for a steamer. I would rather not be seeing legal squabbles instead a cooperative attitude to help the engine.

I could make my own thoughts about MTH model trains but thats a whole other issue but reams a lot of similarity here. Hey model trains are supposed to be fun, not catfights...

and just one more thought, you have to admire the builder of the Leviathan, he didnt have an engine, and took on the challenge to build one. There may be only so many saved/preserved steamers out there, don't own one, build one!!


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2700
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:21 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2438
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
I would caution "2700 Owners" that, inasmuch as they may be trying to state their side of the story to gain support for their cause, such "publicity" done in a poor or amateurish fashion can make even those who are completely right and honest about the issues look foolish, unsophisticated, and/or ignorant. It certainly may not be fair to judge people negatively based only on poor communications skills, but it happens.


Well said Mr. Mitchell. This is why I often caution clients against speaking to the media, or commenting in public about pending litigation. It often seems unfair that, in civil litigation, the first party to the courthouse will speak to the media, and often make statements, but the defendant doesn't. In the end, the only opinion that matters is that brought forth in court. Most jurors are sophisticated enough to look behind the sound and fury.

This is why I cautioned the "real owners" of 2700 to quit wasting time on this forum or their webiste and hire an attorney. In the end, making slanderous statements, accusing people (whom you identify by name) of criminal activity, will not help you. In fact, it could be brought up in court to make you look like an idiot. You may be on the right, but if you do not have credibility, nobody will believe you.

In the preservation context, this is why your organization needs to have as a policy a designated authority to speak to the media. This policy needs to be clearly laid out, and known to all of the employees, volunteers, and members. You don't want Joe Schmo, the car host who didn't see the grade crossing accident talking about it to the Action 4 News team. You can often get training on how to be a media spokesperson. Have a backup, in case you or that designated person isn't available. Who speaks for your organization can be as important as what they speak about.

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David M. Wilkins

"They Love Him for the Enemies He Has Made!"


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2700
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:08 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 am
Posts: 746
Location: Michigan
OY.


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2700
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:21 pm 

Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 5:36 pm
Posts: 6
Concerned Rail Fans,

We could certainly provide a book full of pointers about "what NOT" to do if you own, care for, or have any interest in rail road rolling stock.

Owning a Steam Engine is like owning an elephant. It takes lots of money and lots of time to take care of it.
I cant remember who said it, but I was once told that: "nothing for a steam engine weighs less than a hundred pounds or costs less than a hundred dollars.

A Point was well taken by a member of this forum, that if you dont own the real estate and trackage, it is nigh impossible to make the situation work.

With regard to the receint legal wranglings regarding the "City of St Albans" 2700, we, as interested parties take umbridge with the fact that this was done behind our backs, when it would have taken little effort to do some due dilligence to determine chain of title and custody.

We are very interested in the best outcome for the engine. We would work with any group who can prove the ability to recover the parts, manufacture the parts and restore the engine.

Within 5 years, we have plans to utillize a steam engine to promote "clean coal technology." That said, if we dont prevail, I will be looking to purchase a similar class engine. I know the mechanical condition of the 2700, I provided the Mechanical Report, on "Resurection Day October 1986", when we pulled the engine off our switch in St Albans and put her on the main-line to couple to a Westbound coal drag, on its way to Canton.

If you look at the record and pictures of the engine befor Tom Deihl, Chief Mechanical Officer for S.T.E.A.M., Gary Antonacci, President of S.T.E.A.M. and their torch team started ripping her apart, she was in pristine condition.

Yes, she needed a professional crew to restore her to road-worthy condition, but compare the engine when we had it in our direct care custody and control to present contition, sequestered behind a "BLUE FLAG", in Ohio.

My purpose has been served by allowing each of you to become more informed and curious about the facts.
The only point I am going to rehash is, David Bailey and Rebecca Bailey ostensibly sold their interst in the engine and recieved $10,000.00 cash, an amount that was at the time about 1/3rd of the scrap value. William Dean and Mike Muncy did not sell their interest.

Facts are facts.

Sincerely,
PMMuncy


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