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 Post subject: Re: B&LE 643 to be purchased, moved?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:56 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8354
Location: Baltimore, MD
Richard Glueck wrote:
What can we do, proactively, so another Jensen debacle doesn't occur? This one would be worse, because we've seen this one coming by example. Maybe it's time to start enlisting railroad publications to set up a fund drive, as has been successful in Europe. Perhaps a delegation of authorized, authoritative individuals should make an appointment to address the president of CSX in a private meeting? Is Mr. Campbell, the owner, on board with giving up his locomotive?


Last question first: From the other posts by Botti and Rowland, absolutely not. Nope, nada, nohow, nay, negative.

The ONLY mechanisms available for removing the locomotive from the (alleged) ownership by Campbell are:
*his voluntary sale or transfer of the property (which seems unlikely, albeit NOT impossible, at the moment);
*seizure for unpaid taxes, debts, storage fees, etc (we have no evidence that any of these are a possible factor in this case, like they were with the PRR loco collection and Penn Central);
*provenance that the locomotive was never owned by Campbell and/or is owned by another entity instead (not bloody likely, but stranger things have happened);
*dealing with an estate executor upon Campbell's passing.

This is hardly the only such situation where something of this nature can happen. There is, at the moment, no mechanism to assure preservation of many such artifacts under the ownership and custodianship of private owners--C&O 614, PRR business car 120 and E8's 5711 and 5809, the two surviving Baldwin Sharks and their stablemates in Michigan, Reading 2102 and GM&N 425 and private cars on the Reading & Northern, the steamers and rolling stock at the Grand Canyon RR.......... heck, even the equipment at the Durango & Silverton and Strasburg aren't completely safe from wanton scrapping, save for our trust in the benevolence of the current owners!

The entire East Broad Top............. enough said.

The fact still remains that this is a (mostly) FREE COUNTRY, and that the issue of property rights and their protection are FAR more crucial to our selves, our well-being, and our ability to even have a rail preservation avocation in the first place than the future of a 2-10-4 with basically no place to run. There wouldn't even BE the issue of the East Broad Top, or a PRR diesel as a wedding chapel in Alabama, or the B&LE 643, without private owners having taken possession of these things in the first place. The EBT would have been scrapped by a different scrapper; the 643 might have been donated to a museum, sold to a fly-by-night excursion operator, or even scrapped by the B&LE had Campbell not bought it in 1983.

Yeah, there's plenty to get upset about in the case of B&LE 643, GTW 5629, etc. So why don't we focus our energies on PRR 643 or that Union RR 0-10-2 which have a better future, and come back to the issue of B&LE 643 once Campbell has a change of heart/mind/pulse? Much as I want to see that loco at the Railroad Museum of Pa. or Steamtown, let those who actually know and can talk with him do their jobs; I'll go back to scraping paint, filing/sorting photos, and typing.......


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 Post subject: Re: B&LE 643 to be purchased, moved?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:16 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:06 pm
Posts: 2165
Location: Thomaston & White Plains
ADM's post pretty much sums it all up, quite nicely. Until Campbell decides something, not much else will happen.

And thinking that a private audience with Mike Ward will have any effect on this situation is akin to thinking that the moon is made of green cheese.

If 643 becomes razor blades, it will be ONLY the fault of Campbell, no one else.

Howard P.

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 Post subject: Re: B&LE 643 to be purchased, moved?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:03 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:19 pm
Posts: 1604
Location: Pottstown,Pa.
Howard P.'s post is spot on!!!

I did my level best to get him to see the situation he's really in and I can certify that I have MUCH better results in my daily conversations with my 16 year old cat Magic.

It proved to be completely futile.

Until/unless somehow Campbell wakes up and smells the coffee it will sit there until the razor blade maker comes to get it.

IMHO- Ross Rowland


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 Post subject: Re: B&LE 643 to be purchased, moved?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:05 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 3729
Location: Maine
I shudder to think that slicing up this behemoth steam creature could still be a possibility in the twenty-first century. If Ross Rowland couldn't get action, with his years of experience on his side, then I guess we sit and watch...and wait. I will still fall back and say, some alternative plan to step in and acquire the locomotive, then move it, should be started before the ultimate disaster is upon us.

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 Post subject: Re: B&LE 643 to be purchased, moved?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:11 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:11 am
Posts: 129
Location: Missoula, MT
It's important to remember it's not just private owners either. Government owned steam is no better. If the people in charge of an artifact have no idea what they have or what to do with it sharing 643's fate is a real possibility. The only recourse is that citizens should hold power over things held in their name, for them.

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Missoula, MT
Steam Traction Engineer


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 Post subject: Re: B&LE 643 to be purchased, moved?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:04 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 3729
Location: Maine
I'm certain I'm regarded as a "Pollyana" by some in this group, with certain of my opinions regarding preservation and what should be done. Being a retired teacher, I am not capable of underwriting such tasks. The locomotive is another individual's private property, and I'm more than a little aware of it. Sorry, I don't mean to preach, or sound too much like a liberal arts lecturer. I just don't like surprises, and waiting until a truck with cutting torches pulls up, doesn't seen the right time to take action.

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 Post subject: Re: B&LE 643 to be purchased, moved?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:28 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:04 am
Posts: 665
Location: Northeast Ohio
I'm still sitting here trying to figure out where I am to spend all that extra money that Ross says it would take to load the 643 up on three flatcars.....


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 Post subject: Re: B&LE 643 to be purchased, moved?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:11 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:25 pm
Posts: 1806
I just want to go on record as responding on this thread since most of the rest of the usual RyPN suspects have chimed in..

Hopefully the moderators will consider archiving this thread as a sticky for future generations.

Otherwise I have nothing to add at this time.

Wesley


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 Post subject: Re: B&LE 643 to be purchased, moved?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:11 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2080
I think it shows we all have a concern about the engine despite we are not owners of it.


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 Post subject: Re: B&LE 643 to be purchased, moved?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:09 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:00 pm
Posts: 746
Location: NJ
Thanks MEC. You hit it right on the head and great pics too. So how difficult would it be to do that in this instance?

Laater!
Mr. Ed


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 Post subject: Re: B&LE 643 to be purchased, moved?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:23 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:09 am
Posts: 40
Location: New Hampshire
With all this talk about razor blades.......We should discuss if the engine really worth saving? Given the size, weight, long wheelbase, blind drivers, and slow speed of this locomotive it really has no place in any excursion service on any railroad. In addition, just moving the thing will tax the physical plant of the railroad it's being moved on.

Wouldn't the money spent on purchase, movement and restoration be better spent on a locomotive which at some point could operate on either a shortline or in mainline service. Seems like you'd be throwing money into a black hole with the 643. Oh, and by the way I am a B&LE fan, but also a pragmatist.


Michael Thomas


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 Post subject: Re: B&LE 643 to be purchased, moved?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:31 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2438
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
sixaxlealco wrote:
With all this talk about razor blades.......We should discuss if the engine really worth saving? Given the size, weight, long wheelbase, blind drivers, and slow speed of this locomotive it really has no place in any excursion service on any railroad. In addition, just moving the thing will tax the physical plant of the railroad it's being moved on.

Wouldn't the money spent on purchase, movement and restoration be better spent on a locomotive which at some point could operate on either a shortline or in mainline service. Seems like you'd be throwing money into a black hole with the 643. Oh, and by the way I am a B&LE fan, but also a pragmatist.


By that logic, we as preservationists should never save anything that can't be run on a modern Class I railroad or regional railroad. The people working on Car 57 in Cheyanne, STOP, because the car will never be Amtrak compatible! 19th century collection at the B&O museum? Why save it, it can't be run? Move a Big Boy to a different display location? Forget about it!

Preservation by nature is "throwing money into a black hole." Restoring even the most Class I and regional friendly steam locomotive is largely a money-loosing venture. I once had a PV owner explain to me that one isn't ready to own one until you can go to your bathroom and flush away many $100 bills one at a time and be okay with it. While I'm not advocating running the 643, it would make a nice display piece, especially in a setting that can demonstrate the importance of railroads in the steel industry. Not aeverything has to run, and not everything worth saving has to be operable.

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 Post subject: Re: B&LE 643 to be purchased, moved?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:15 pm 

Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:52 pm
Posts: 73
I think this is the closest we will ever hear of the 643 being under steam.........

This clip was from the Sept. 18th run on the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad with NKP 765. This is the 1st of two photo run bys we did at Howe Meadow that evening.

As many know, we have the ability to put a "guest" whistle on the 765 which is blown by the fireman (The Nathan six chime is blown by the engineer). On this trip we had the whistle off the 643 for the trip! The whistle has a very distinct sound to it!!

Enjoy!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD0XB5YF ... re=related


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 Post subject: Re: B&LE 643 to be purchased, moved?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:33 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:04 am
Posts: 665
Location: Northeast Ohio
What is it with you steam people anyways? Its either restore it to operation or its not worth a second look.

Why must the 643 be returned to operation? Why? Why? Why? Is there that big of a gulch between the operation guys and the museum people that we cannot even see the other's viewpoint?


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 Post subject: Re: B&LE 643 to be purchased, moved?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:02 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:37 pm
Posts: 435
Location: Missoula MT
Well, right now the issue is more to keep the engine out of harms reach. What's really needed is some largish foundation/fund that can identify historic at risk equipment and provide the support (money, riggers, whatever) to be able to move in on endangered equipment and get it to a better home (which would also have to provide support to procure an item--no free lunch).

This has been brought up before though and has gone nowhere. Still, such a group, with secure storage in various places (hosted by other preservation groups?) could "rescue" a lot of equipment that might otherwise have logistics dooming it. Well, something to think about.

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT


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