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 Post subject: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:07 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:38 pm
Posts: 527
Location: New Jersey, Central
With all the talk about 643 I've been thinking about the issues of moving a steamer with friction bearings. If it's not land locked.
In the attached picture that someone has moved a diesel. Could something like be made and used to move a steamer on rails. What I mean is can't we just replace the rubber tires with steel rail wheels and trucks? Maybe shorten it up not sure if the length is an issue. Would the big railroads allow this? You would only have to have the wheels of the steamer off the tracks by several inches. Just a thought. Yeah I know who is going to pay for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:22 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:06 pm
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Location: Thomaston & White Plains
Funny you should mention this...

Not too long ago, I was brainstorming with another regular on RyPN about using a Schnabel car to transport railroad equipment, by use of a "cradle" that would form the load to be mounted between the Schnabel end units.

I'm not an engineer (mechanical or structural), but I suspect it could work, at least for rolling stock and locomotives up to about 130 tons/60 feet length.

Paying for it and getting the railroads to agree to moving it are some significant hurdles to overcome. But a self-contained "over-dimension" load is probably less scary than moving a steam locomotive, for example.

Howard P.
Utopia, NY

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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:57 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:10 pm
Posts: 951
A similar rig was used a couple years ago, I believe, to move a UP 4-8-4 (No. 833?) from Salt Lake City to Ogden, and I think I remember a Challenger was moved the same way. You can move anything if you have enough money.


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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:58 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:57 am
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Although this idea is a long shot, anything is possible with enough money.


http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 800&nseq=7

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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:07 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8358
Location: Baltimore, MD
The thought that occurs to me, looking at this:

IF such a rail rig works in a manner that would be deemed acceptable to the railroads accepting the shipment, it's very likely that such a load would either be outrageously incapable of most clearances (both height and lateral clearances), or it would require such specialized handling, oversight, and administration as to push the price into the ionosphere.

Or both.

The rig described by Brother Laepple was a roadway rig, not a rail rig. And note the shot of 4023 includes a rig MUCH wider than standard gauge or even Hitler's proposed super-gauge.......

[digging for the photos of N&W 475 being shipped from Iowa to Pennsylvania on three flatcars.....]


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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:14 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:38 pm
Posts: 527
Location: New Jersey, Central
Well if you could get the rail trucks under it, that would eliminate the whole friction bearing issue. We are still looking at the picture I attached. Only issues would be the height, width, and length and would that be an issue for the railroad? 611 wouldn't have been dead-towed and the risk of damage to her bearings would have be eliminated. Plus is it 1351? which is on hold for train fest would be able to be moved without issues. Not a railroad guy so I don't know what clearances needed for loads that would be hanging over the width of the rails.


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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:56 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8358
Location: Baltimore, MD
It depends what rail lines you're on. On some multi-track lines with vertical clearances for double-stack container trains, it wouldn't be so bad. On the other hand, there are rail lines incapable of even handling six-axle diesels.

Railroads have their own specialists who keep records on what the clearances are supposed to be on any rail line on their system, or at least can cite the AAR "plate clearance" (a template through which given cars, loads, etc. are supposed to be able to fit) of a given branch. It can take but one bridge, tunnel, or overpass to impose a detour of several hundred miles. There are a scant few rail lines where the major reason the line still exists is as a "high-wide" route--one of these is the line down the Delmarva Peninsula and across the Chesapeake Bay car float.

UP 3985, which was supposed to be identical to Clinchfield 4-6-6-4's, encountered some clearance problems when it ran on the Clinchfield several years back. And that was on its own wheels.


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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:00 pm 
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There are many limitations to the load you can transport over highways including the total weight load on bridges, the loading per tire on pavement, the clearance issues, and how much chaos local authorities will allow you to generate on the shipment route. As you can see from the examples cited previously, moving a 120 ton diesel switcher requires a very big rig, moving a 450 ton steam locomotive puts you in the same realm as moving a building.

I still think that in cases where weight and size make a single load highway or rail move impractical, partial disassembly with expert attention to weights, clearances, and loading can make highway transportation of some locomotives more feasible, although requiring more trips, more permits, more escorts, and possibly greater expense.

PC

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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:22 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:29 am
Posts: 316
Location: Schuylkill County, PA
The roads around Pittsburgh where 643 is, with many bridges and tunnels, would never accommodate a rig such as that.


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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:24 pm 
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Location: Beaumont, Texas
While your idea has merit; I think it is solving the wrong problem.

I don't believe the railroads want to haul anything that disrupts their normal operations; especially with loadings as high as they are now. That includes oversize and special loads as well as equipment with friction bearings.

Normally when a new powerplant is built, the generator is moved in by rail; every plant has a track leading to the turbine hall for this purpose. But, when the 1.9 million pound generator for a new plant in central Texas arrived at the Port of Houston, it was hauled in by road:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4pn4a4a2lA

So, I think a steam locomotive as an oversize load will get the same cold shoulder that a steam locomotive would. I don't remember where I heard it; but a comment was made that most of today's railroad workers do things by the book, and no longer have the expertice to handle exceptions like this.

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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:39 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:03 pm
Posts: 138
Location: Wichita, Kansas
There are numerous oversize/overweight loads moved on a regular basis on Class I railroads. This last summer one of the largest refinery reactors was built in Canada and move to a plant near Wichita, KS. I have handled single units that weigh in excess of 275,000 lbs on a regular basis that have been shipped by rail. Yes it costs money, nothing is free, but if the Class I's can make a buck they will. There are a number of speciality cars that can be used or modified to move a locomotive. You can drop the trucks & drivers move them as seperate loads and the locomotive then moved on a special flat. Any number of Heavy Haul people could do the work. MONEY TALKS AND BULLS**T WALKS.


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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:42 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:10 pm
Posts: 951
I'll say it again. You can move anything anywhere if you have enough money.


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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:53 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2080
we have chatted about moving the Lost Engines till we were blue in the face in the TWVRPS meetings.

One idea was to raise the engines a little and mount temporary trucks or wheelsets just enough to get them to roll.

For the case of the diesels, you can crane them or jack lift them, and roll temporary shop trucks under them and your fine for delivery removing the original trucks.

In the case of 643, is it friction bearings for the drivers, no roller bearings?
This is a different case. Obviously friction bearings have more drag than roller bearings, thats why the railroads went roller bearings, they can pull more, roll better. 643 is an engine, and a unique case. The same for the 4-8-0's. Properly lubed and maintained you will not have problems.

BTW the 4-8-0's when they worked them over found the friction bearings to be in very good shape despite the sitting time.

Personally, If I were in the ordeal like the 643's owner was in, and I were trying to restore it like it has been, if I were gonna try to move it anywhere, I would complete its restoration and move it under its own power. It frees various issues from the railroad's needs trying to move it.

CSX needs to wake up, moving this engine could generate lots of publicity.


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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:29 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:06 pm
Posts: 2165
Location: Thomaston & White Plains
Why does CSX need publicity from moving a steam locomotive? Will it earn them any more revenue? I suggest you review the events of last spring at Cumberland, MD, involving a 10-mile move for a steam locomotive with no disconnected sidings in the mix.

They need to "wake up"? Really, now. They seem to be doing just fine, running their business without advice from the likes of railfans. What they need to do is please stockholders and especially institutional investors.

"move it under its own power"...that option is even less likely than a dead-in-tow, especially for a locomotive that needs the full Part 230 work. The railroads have made that abundantly clear, especially CSX. NS is to be commended for the move of C&O 614 recently, and for working with the new owner of NKP 763 a year or so ago.

Howard P.

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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:07 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:48 am
Posts: 21
[quote="G. W. Laepple"]A similar rig was used a couple years ago, I believe, to move a UP 4-8-4 (No. 833?) from Salt Lake City to Ogden, and I think I remember a Challenger was moved the same way. You can move anything if you have enough money.

That is the very same rig and company that moved UP 833 from Salt lake to Ogden up I-15. That picture is of when we moved ex-UP NW-2 #1043 from Pacific States Cast Iron Pipe in Provo, UT to Heber City, UT a couple years ago.

That rig can stretch to a maximum inside length of 300 ft and maximum "inside the cage" width of 30 ft. The size of the trailer is assembled to what ever dimension the load will be before the truck leaves home base. The wheels on the locomotive were only 6" off the ground for the "ride". Each tower on either end of the "bridge" that the load is supporter by has hydraulic rams that can raise or lower the load en-route, if needed.

This same rig also recently moved the UP 2295 in Boise, ID from a Park to the Depot in town.

I'd be happy to answer any questions anyone would have from when I used this method.

Michael Manwiller
Heber Valley Railroad


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