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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:54 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3013
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Fort Worth train:

http://www.trainweb.org/chris/fwmr.html

Disney's Animal Kingdom:

http://www.thecaliforniasource.com/wp-c ... -train.jpg

I concur with Surviving World Steam's comments about these operations, based on the photo story and video clips above.

Lessons, at least for me:

Length and scenery are important, and help to sell tickets. Authentic steam power would enhance such an operation.

However, how would you sell the additional expense of steam operation to the management?

Is the Disney operation "authentic?" I'm not referring to the false steam locomotives (oh, why couldn't they have been true steam, Disney has plenty of experience there), but to the "weathering" and "character" of the train--rust and grime on the locomotive, luggage stowed on the car roofs. To my eye, there are lessons here for the park trains. Disney Studios did what I think is a great job, but I have to wonder if anybody else but Disney could carry this off and sell tickets. Most people don't care for rust and grime!

Check out the amusement park trolley:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKQRJvw0XEs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOYTJz9rOPY

Have fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:25 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:06 pm
Posts: 122
I find it interesting that some suggest that just because an engine wears a gaudy paint scheme, it isn't "real." The Disney engines--particularly those at Disneyland, but also in FL--wear schemes that to us look gaudy, but by some Victorian standards, might seem downright subdued. Some of us exhibit too much "temporal chauvinism" by thinking all of steam railroading started in the 1930s with drab black engines. One only need look at early color lithographs, or read period texts, to know that often the steam locomotives prior to 1900 were quite dazzling.

It's sort of interesting to note that back in 1955, the Disneyland trains were in fact NOT designed to perform an actual "point A to point B" transportation function. You would get off the train at the very same station you boarded at.

Walt Disney--a real railfan who enjoyed sharing his passion with the public--had education more in mind with his railroad. He wanted to give his passengers a "taste" of what a turn-of-the-century railroad experience was like. This included having the Conductor or Brakeman (the positions were distinct back then) throw switches and utilize passing sidings.

The education component continued with the locomotive design. One engine had a lengthened smokebox and a cap stack; the other had a "fake" diamond stack. But those different details--even though "fake"--allowed not only for differentiation in the engines, but allowed for discussion of why one engine had a different stack than the other.

The design of the engines took its cue from a real engine--Central Pacific 4-4-0 No. 173. This led to interesting, if strange (to us) designs. For instance, the two cylinders were cast separately, and then bolted to the cylinder saddle. Peter Bouley--who rebuilt one of the engines in the 1990s--ridiculed this construction technique as what one would expect from "model railroaders." I had to tell him that was the way Norris built the engine in the 1870s--and was how some "real railroaders" did it then.

Back then, the railroad was sponsored by the Santa Fe--and they took enormous pride in the line, virtually according it Santa Fe "branch line" status. They accepted passes from any other railroad, and their company photographer made many treks to get shots of these small "Santa Fe" engines. The railroad often appeared in the Santa Fe employee magazine.

Ex Santa Fe engineers held engineer posts at the Park. The entire main line was designed and built by Earl Vilmer, who was once a foreman at a Kansas City Southern roundhouse, and supervised the laying of a vital supply rail link through Persia during WWII. The locomotive blueprints were drawn by Ed Lingenfelter--a draftsman with the Pennsylvania RR at the turn of the century, and later a draftsman with the Southern Pacific.

I suspect these men would very much dispute the thought that "Park Trains" aren't "real."

Later, as the Park grew, they acquired other engines: Two Baldwin sugar plantation engines from Louisiana, and a quarry engine from New Jersey--the latter retrofitted to look like the D&RG's first engine, the Montezuma. Again, the colors were vibrant, but certainly not unheard of--even red boiler jackets, which John White notes was the predominant engine color on the NYC elevated.

In the late '60s, four more Baldwins were located (again, by former "real" railroader Earl Vilmer).

So while we can turn up our noses at "Park trains," we have to face the fact that the Disney Company domestically operates seven Baldwins and two custom-made engines, and globally operates a total of 17 narrow gauge steam locomotives. It's probably not hyperbole to say that in the US, most people's only experience with steam was behind a Disney engine.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:02 pm 
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Location: Beaumont, Texas
J3a-614 wrote:
(oh, why couldn't they have been true steam, Disney has plenty of experience there)


In it's early days, Disney World was even more "steamy" than it is now. Authentic looking steam powered launches and side wheel rocking beam ferries plied the lagoon, and a narrow gauge steam train served as the transportation around the Fort Wilderness campground. There were TWO riverboats in the lagoon in the Liberty Square area:

http://www.bigbrian-nc.com/7seas.htm

http://www.bigbrian-nc.com/7seasb.htm

http://www.bigbrian-nc.com/wdw-pc05.htm

When Disney survived the "hostile takeover" events in the late 1970's, many of the authentic assets were discontinued for financial reasons. It was costly to run an authentic steamship that was slow, low in guest capacity and high in maintenance.

Also, the steam engines on the steam launches and the Fort Wilderness train itself proved to be problematic. So, the steam launches were motorized, and the Fort Wilderness train removed; we stayed there last December, and the only clue there was ever a train there was a design study painting of the train hanging in our cabin and an old poster advertising the train in the Visitors Center. Busses now transport guest around the campground.

Given the above, it is not surprising that the last trainset installed at the Animal Kingdom park was a diesel replica. Sadly, times have changed since the parks first opened; and I am thankful we still have what steam we have in the parks.

Both the Disney Fort Wilderness train and the train in the Fort Worth Zoo (not the Fort Worth train in link; different train) were built by the British firm of Severn Lamb. Lamb has supplied both steam locomotives and replicas to parks around the world; including the steam locomotives at Disneyland Paris.

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Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Project - New Address!

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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:06 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:06 pm
Posts: 122
survivingworldsteam wrote:
Both the Disney Fort Wilderness train and the train in the Fort Worth Zoo (not the Fort Worth train in link; different train) were built by the British firm of Severn Lamb.

Actually, the Fort Wilderness locomotives and trains were built by the manufacturing arm of Disney, known as MAPO. The engines even bore MAPO builder's plates.

http://www.fwrr.info/gscale/builders20plate.jpg

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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:42 pm 
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Steve DeGaetano wrote:
survivingworldsteam wrote:
Both the Disney Fort Wilderness train and the train in the Fort Worth Zoo (not the Fort Worth train in link; different train) were built by the British firm of Severn Lamb.

Actually, the Fort Wilderness locomotives and trains were built by the manufacturing arm of Disney, known as MAPO. The engines even bore MAPO builder's plates.

http://www.fwrr.info/gscale/builders20plate.jpg


You are right; my mistake; I meant to say the Animal Kingdom park train was built by Severn Lamb. Thanks for the correction.

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Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Project - New Address!

International Stationary Steam Engine Society


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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:13 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
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Cedar Point and Dollywood both use real 3 foot gauge locomotives formerly used on commercial use.

If you go to Steamtown, Durango, Strasburg, ride behind 765 on an excursion? Real?

Sure.

Definition of "real" I don't think has a bearing whether its used commercially, passenger service, or a roll in the hay. If its a locomotive with or without cars, you got a train. (IE a locomotive running light on the main is still classified a train).

I have a model railroad and I still run a train. So its real, a real model of a train.


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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:02 pm 
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dinwitty wrote:
Definition of "real" I don't think has a bearing whether its used commercially, passenger service, or a roll in the hay. If its a locomotive with or without cars, you got a train. (IE a locomotive running light on the main is still classified a train).

I have a model railroad and I still run a train. So its real, a real model of a train.


Yes, unless you are building virtual models for Microsoft Train Simulator, everything is real, and even models can be worthy of preservation status given the correct context.

In my case, the need was to draw a line between "live steam" and "full size" steam trains. Live steam trains would not be of interest to most folks who were researching full size ones; and as I pointed out, the live steam ones are next to impossible to keep track of. Hence, I came up with the concept of track gauge as the dividing line (excluding the few monorail steam locomotives in the database.)

Where anyone draws the line probably depends on what they are trying to define. As you pointed out, some industrial locomotives share (or exclusively run) some park railways, but surely they are "real" anyway. Others turn their noses up at any operation that is not a genuine revenue producing operation; including all museum and most perserved railways. Most likely, where ever you draw the line, it will be broad and grey; not sharply defined.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:27 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:18 am
Posts: 467
Location: Wall, NJ
> Cedar Point and Dollywood both use real 3 foot
> gauge locomotives formerly used on commercial use.

Just to add to the argument, you have to go back much further actually at Cedar Point. Say the early teens or so where a 2' gauge railroad operated to move luggage, coal, and ice around the park. It was hauled by an early Plymouth as I understand it. I wonder what we would call this type of operation?

Again, just asking for fun really, although I am a fan of those early friction drive Plymouths.

Around the same time a 15" gauge steamer was installed at Cedar Point, but unlike the House of David operation, it was purely a ride of enjoyment, or amusement I guess you might say. This locomotive (a 1907 Herschell) now resides in my garage with the restoration about 75% complete..

J.R.


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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:22 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:54 am
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Location: NJ
I'm surprised that the Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch Railway, across the pond, hasn't come up in this discussion. Thirteen and a half miles of fifteen inch gauge track, and mostly operated with steam, it has been billed as "the smallest public railway in the world". This line was built in the twenties, operated armored trains with AA guns during WWII, and now carries school children to and from school on a regular basis.

Hard to classify, right? Its a common carrier, with a smaller track gauge than many "park" trains, but with much more mileage. Neat website, too, at http://www.rhdr.org.uk.


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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:29 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3013
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
This is a fun thread. . .

For me, the definition of a "real" vs. "model" railroad is if the equipment is big enough to ride in it, as opposed to on it, which is often the case with the smaller live steam scales. That ties in with Surviving World Steam's suggestion of a 12" minimum gauge and working hardware (such as air brakes). And of course, as we have seen in more than one post here, this equipment still requires professional operation and maintenance for safety.

Now, for the fun stuff--paint and finish, and opinions on same!

"I find it interesting that some suggest that just because an engine wears a gaudy paint scheme, it isn't "real." The Disney engines--particularly those at Disneyland, but also in FL--wear schemes that to us look gaudy, but by some Victorian standards, might seem downright subdued. Some of us exhibit too much "temporal chauvinism" by thinking all of steam railroading started in the 1930s with drab black engines."--Steve DeGaetano

Drab? Drab?!! Bah!! I say refined, like a tuxedo, especially with touches of white and graphite and dulux:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 48&nseq=14

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 28&nseq=46

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 42&nseq=81

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 2&nseq=115

A colorful herald on the tender adds a nice little touch:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 285&nseq=8

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 86&nseq=32

"One only need look at early color lithographs, or read period texts, to know that often the steam locomotives prior to 1900 were quite dazzling."--Steve DeGaetano

In a way, yes, but they still managed not to be "gaudy." I think much of this came from the fact that much of those older locomotives wasn't actually painted, but polished and varnished. Think of the Russia iron jackets, the brass, and the varnished wooden cabs. About the only things painted on that old power were the pilot, the frames and wheels, and the tender, along with some smaller components such as the headlight.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 236&nseq=2

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 008&nseq=8

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 191&nseq=1

Of course, some came out mighty bright then, too:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 197&nseq=0

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 616&nseq=5

Based on the above photos, the original park at Anaheim came out pretty close:

http://findingmickey.squarespace.com/pi ... Image=true

This version of No. 2 is, I understand, similar to what the Mount Gretna line did, with the possible exception of a Russia iron jacket:

http://burnsland.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=415

I can't find an internet image to use, but I do have a postcard with a photo of No. 2 in solid black paint--and it looks sharp that way!

Black and white photo that has much of the effect, just prior to the opening of the park in 1955:

http://davelandweb.com/dlrr/images/Ripley_Sept1955.jpg

What was done later in Florida didn't quite come out the same--maybe the engines are a bit too modern in proportion, very likely a Russia iron jacket would make a difference:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 958&nseq=8

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 582&nseq=9

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 959&nseq=7

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 52&nseq=11

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 75&nseq=16

Make no mistake, though--I can't begin to express how glad I am that Disney kept these engines from the scrappers!

It's also fascinating to note that these locomotives have crosshead water pumps. I understand these engines were delivered with them, an unusual application for locomotives built as late as these were.

"Walt Disney--a real railfan who enjoyed sharing his passion with the public--had education more in mind with his railroad. He wanted to give his passengers a "taste" of what a turn-of-the-century railroad experience was like. This included having the Conductor or Brakeman (the positions were distinct back then) throw switches and utilize passing sidings."--Steve DeGaetano

It's too bad Disney wasn't quite able to bring this aspect of the railroad to the level of his vision.

It's interesting to note that the original plans for the park in Anaheim included a brick roundhouse and car shops, as related by Steve DeGaetano at Mice Age:

http://miceage.micechat.com/stevedegaet ... 41707a.htm

http://miceage.micechat.com/stevedegaet ... 41707b.htm

http://miceage.micechat.com/stevedegaet ... 41707c.htm

http://miceage.micechat.com/stevedegaet ... 41707i.jpg

Finally, I just found out that Disneyland once had "diesels."

http://davelandweb.com/viewliner/

http://davelandweb.com/viewliner/popup. ... wliner.jpg

http://davelandweb.com/viewliner/popup. ... _ViewL.jpg

http://davelandweb.com/viewliner/popup. ... 8_N11R.jpg

Finally, some people would say "real" or "serious" railroads don't run in circles. Well, as model railroaders like to say, there's a prototype for everything:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Eusti ... y_Railroad

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FEVA_map_1967.jpg

Have fun!


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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:42 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3013
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Looking over Mice Age, I have to put in a plug for a number of books on the site:

http://miceage.micechat.com/stevedegaet ... 90710a.htm

http://www.steampassages.com/

Going to have to get a couple of these. . .


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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:44 am 
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Quote:
"I find it interesting that some suggest that just because an engine wears a gaudy paint scheme, it isn't "real." The Disney engines--particularly those at Disneyland, but also in FL--wear schemes that to us look gaudy, but by some Victorian standards, might seem downright subdued. Some of us exhibit too much "temporal chauvinism" by thinking all of steam railroading started in the 1930s with drab black engines."--Steve DeGaetano


And it's mostly an American chauvinism. Both Russian and Chinese freight engines were black, but like our passenger engines, their passenger engines were brightly painted.

Besides the British Isles and some places in Europe, the engines that brought in the cane on the islands of Cuba and Indonesia were also brightly painted. About the only color I have not seen on a steam engine is pink; although I have seen some red ones that had faded to that color.

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Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Project - New Address!

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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:50 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3013
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
"About the only color I have not seen on a steam engine is pink. . ."--Surviving World Steam

As the modelers say, there is a prototype for everything--check out the tender on this one. This isn't fading; notice the red wheels:

http://cprr.org/Museum/Engravings/Tiger.html

I'm not entirely certain it works on more modern power, however:

http://www.thewolsztynexperience.org/ga ... CF2328.htm

Also got to looking at Severn Lamb:

http://www.severn-lamb.com/about.asp

Some of the products look pretty authentic:

http://www.railroadforums.com/photos/da ... Asteam.JPG

Others are on the caricature side of the book, like this logging engine:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5140/553 ... 9f372b.jpg

An interesting choice for a steam-outline diesel-hydraulic:

http://www.ferrymeadowsrailway.co.uk/im ... %20out.JPG

One of the Disney engines (this is the best image I could find):

http://berwickrailfan.webs.com/locomotives/disney-1.gif

Stepping back briefly to Disneyland's short-lived Viewliner, we take a look at this shot. It's blurred, but sharp enough to note the tail of one of the steam trains at the far right. Most notable is the condition of the track. How many of us wish we had track that looked this good?

http://davelandweb.com/viewliner/popup. ... DY_N27.jpg

Have fun.

Have fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:29 pm 
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I don't know if this link will work because it is from my facebook page; but here is a closer look:

Image

They really are neat; too bad they are not actual steam engines.

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Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Project - New Address!

International Stationary Steam Engine Society


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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:34 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3013
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
You'll be glad to know your photo came through.

Again, one of the interesting things about this steam-outline diesel is the "weathering" job. We have what looks like faded paint, rust, an off-center headlight that looks like it was added by the "Eastern Star Railway's" shop crews, some sort of animal horns at the front (this is on all three locomotives, and it would have been better in my opinion to have them on only one--a little more individuality that way), water spilled on the running board ahead of the tank, dented dome covers on at least two engines (not visible here), and an engineman's bicycle on the running board as well. This "realistic" (?) look is quite a contrast to the apparently pampered real steam engines elsewhere in the park!

Speaking of the real steam road, I wonder what the reactions would be if an engine or two from another narrow-gauge line were brought in for a visit, in their appropriately authentic black paint?

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 678&nseq=7

This would be modern power on the Walt Disney World railroad:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 67&nseq=10

Drab? Bah!!

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 48&nseq=12

I still wonder how much better the Disney rail operations would be, both for entertainment and for education, if his original vision had been able to prevail, including an authentic roundhouse and shop facility:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 961&nseq=0

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 33&nseq=28

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 70&nseq=60

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 58&nseq=38

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 84&nseq=58

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 19&nseq=30

Sadly, I don't believe any of his successors would even remotely consider anything like this.


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