I guess it's just a matter of being sad for 4876 to have come this far only to be scrapped.

Imagine some years down the road telling the story of GG1's in general, and then the tale of this one specifically, with the wreck, cutting in pieces, and the rebuilding to run another 30 years or so. If, at that point, it would have gone to junk like most of the others, so be it....the story ends there. But, no, this one gets tapped for preservation and does indeed survive another 30+ years in the custody of a museum. And then succumbs to the torch anyway, just because folks didn't care enough to keep her painted, protected from vandals or out of the weather? No matter how you look at it, that would just be a shame.

Steve

I have to say that 4876's current situation is in no small measure partly my fault. I was part of a small group from the DC area that wanted to bring it back to DC. The idea was to get it as close to DC as possible. At the time, the B&O Museum had become a Smithsonian affiliated museum, and was the closest suitable facility to keep it at. The curator at the time was favorably disposed to the idea and helped with the arrangements. 4876 was owned by the URHS of NJ, and I worked with a sympathetic officer there to get it donated. Their main GG1 interest was and still is Tuscan sister 4877, so the need to winnow equipment helped expedite the donation, and the DC area seemed to make the most sense as the best place to send it, given the history of the unit. As part of the acquisition, the Museum's then existing GG1, 4890 was declared surplus and later ended up in Green Bay. 4890's only real claim to Baltimore was that it had come out of Stregel scrap yard.

When it came down to the nitty gritty, I was the one who stepped up and wrote the check, on an Amtrak LSA's pay, to bring the 4876 to Baltimore. It was my one big-time try at preservation, and I have to say it crashed and burned pretty spectacularly. I used to pass by it for several years on a regular basis, driving to and from Mt. Clare A-yard when I went to work at CSX, watching it deteriorate. I don't know if it would have been better off staying in NJ, given the problems the URHSNJ has had. Leadership and the mission of the B&O Museum changed and 4876 became a non-mission piece. A lot of us had hoped that we could have gotten it cosmetically restored for the hundredth anniversary of Washington Union Station, and displayed it at the bumper of track 16, where it so famously failed to stop, but it was not to be. From here on out I'm going to leave the scheming and planning to others.

Paul, perhaps she only exists today because of the effort to have her go to a museum. Point is, it's rather a rare day when doing nothing is better than attempting something.

BTW, the Wikipedia article about this locomotive says it was cut into 6 ft sections. I find that hard to believe. Anyone know for sure how she was sectioned? Surely just a few large pieces plus the supertrucks (and likely the guiding trucks separately).

Steve

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRR_4876

Paul, I know the feeling of attempting to be a doer on a preservation project to have things change beyond your control leaving the project stalled and your own personal bank account drained. That being said I salute you for what you did accomplish. Thanks to your efforts and generosity 4876 is still around to have this conversation about.

There has been much stated in this thread about talkers and doers, many reasons to do and not to do, things to worry about and things to be ignored. The interesting thing is there has been much conversation. That alone proves that even as some have alluded to that there GG1s are over collected there is still much interest in this one. It may be that no one on this site will be able to do anything about the fate of 4876. However It could be anytime in the future that for what ever reason someone mat do a search on it and find this thread, and it will prove to be inspiring to someone who can make a difference.

I just finished reading the above linked article that states that it was cut into 6 foot pieces to be removed from the station. I find that a bit hard to believe, as from my experience of spending much time working on and around 4882 that would be impractical if not impossible. I thought that somewhere I had read that it was removed in 3 pieces. That would make since as the GG1 is basically a covered warren truss bridge riding on 2 ten-wheelers hooked together back to back, 3 main component pieces. Maybe someone here can comment further on that.

I really don’t get the whole “If you can’t restore it, scrap it” argument I’m seeing a lot of here these days. If something is a basket case right now or there are plenty of said object elsewhere, you can’t know in the future the same reality will exist. “Don’t worry, there are plenty of them elsewhere” is a dangerous statement. Think Alco PA or any other type of equipment that either is gone for good or only 1-2 still exist today. If you scrap something, THAT’S IT. But if it’s still around in any form, you never know how serious someone in the future might be for a restoration of it. But if it no longer exists at all, you’re assuring nobody after you will be able to do anything once you’ve cut it up. You only have to look into aviation restoration to see airplanes nobody would have dreamed or rebuilding 20-30 years ago, now turned into factory fresh from just a few rusting parts.
If the whole “If you can’t restore it, scrap it” deal is to motivate an owner or museum into restoration, just remember Dick Jensen. I can almost promise you he never really thought that those engines would be cut up.
All I know is that this GG-1 has more of an interesting history than any other GG1 (you can argue the case for old rivets, but that’s really limited to how she was built and a cool paint job she had in 1976), and people into trains don’t realize the power of a good story behind an artifact.
All that said, I do agree with ‘His Nibs the 4th’ that the idea of having it displayed at Washington Union Station with a connection to a spectacular runaway right next to the nation’s busiest passenger rail line is pretty silly. I can’t blame Amtrak for considering this locomotive kryptonite and wanting it as far from the station as possible. Would anyone running modern steam want a display about crown sheet failures or passenger deaths in the steam age right next to where passengers would board a train pulled by steam? Of course not!

Based on other comments I think the body & main frame were cut but perhaps only in two sections. I guess that's the actual question--how many sections. Surely lifting the body from the truck assemblies, something done all the time in the shop, could not possibly count as cutting her in sections.

Steve

With all the documention of PRR "stuff", all the mounds of official PRR photos, memos from Motive Power Dept about things like T-1 failures (Hagley Museum holds much of this material), it is surprising that nothing has surfaced about HOW 4876 was removed. It certainly was publicized when it happened, as a example of railroad "can-do", but in a general sort of way.

Has anyone, perhaps Paul W., ever looked inside the carbody for any evidence of weld repairs on the structural members?

Howard P.

Well I guess that is a question that would not be answered if 4876 is scrapped as some favor. Yep, nothing to see here. Nothing historic about that locomotive AT ALL! Just cut her up and be done with it, say these self proclaimed experts in all things flanged wheels.

By that same line of reasoning the Mexicans should have torched those two mangled PA-4 hulks. Gee, when we let some sheet metal rot on a G get the best of us why I guess there is NO FREAKING WAY that the PA in Dallas could EVER be restored. Right? Nothing historic to see here. Cut her up and move on!

As I've said before, that 90 feet of track space is not in great demand for other uses right now, so it does no harm to let her sit and wait. Hopefully the B&O Museum would give access for a few volunteers to do some stabilization work, and then put her back out on that 90 feet of track to wait until the mysterious forces of preservation come together and a new interest in this locomotive arises.

I have relatives who live in Silver Spring, MD, and my wife would just love to come out to visit them in the summer. So if a work party could be arranged with the B&O Museum I'll give a week's worth of labor. Stabilizing a GG1 will seem like child's play compared to the 10,000 tons of blast furnace plant that I struggle to keep standing every day.

So how would an AEM7 toaster have fared in the same accident? Not to mention its crew.

Steve

I've actually never been inside of the 4876. I've been told by a couple of trainmen who have that it's incredibly dirty, with plenty of places to rip up your clothing and arms and legs. I did make a quick inspection of the lower parts of it when it first arrived in Baltimore, and could find no evidence that the frame had been torched and re-welded. I'm inclined to think that the way it was removed from the basement had to do with separating body, frame, guts, and running gear in logical pieces. It was removed with the intension of putting it back in working order, so just hacking it up would have made no sense at all.

Does anyone have a timeline for 4876's ownership and location changes during the preservation era? Paul W. posted that it was transferred to Baltimore from URHS ownership at some point and I'm curious when this happened - and where it was stored before that time. A few quick Google searches have turned up conflicting information as to when NJT sold/donated 4876 and to whom. Any info is appreciated!

My best recollection is that the transfer of ownership to the B&O Museum was negotiated in late '92/early '93, and the motor showed up in Baltimore in time for (the B&O Railroad's) Founder's Day celebration at the museum in 1993, which is in early July, I believe. I remember it was the same year that the Book Trackside Maryland came out, because the author was there signing books. Where 4876 was before that I don't know for sure. I do know that it came via CSX under the arrangement the Museum had/has with them for moving equipment to and from the Museum.

Looking at this whole discussion from sunny Southern California, I'll make two comments:
A) Judging from the photos and reports, I would suggest that if a cosmetic restoration project is started, anyone planning to join the work party should make sure their tetanus immunization is up to date.
B) Regarding the GG-1 in Dallas (and other locations far from the Northeast Corridor) Maybe the real thing only ran on the Pennsy, but hundreds of the 1/48 scale version ran under Christmas trees and in store windows throughout this land of ours at this time of year. This might account for some of the interest in a specialized locomotive outside its native habitat.