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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:14 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:58 pm
Posts: 1195
Location: Chicago USA
Soooo....is the stoker equipment being fitted into 4501's ex-C of G 4-8-2 tender (the one she's run with since 1968)? Or is the CN engine's tender going to be mated to 4501?

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:57 am 

Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:05 am
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Location: Australia
Any idea of the fate of CN 5288 or is the surgery being done so as not to cause disfigurement?

Wes

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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:52 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:19 am
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Location: Decatur, GA
filmteknik wrote:
Soooo....is the stoker equipment being fitted into 4501's ex-C of G 4-8-2 tender (the one she's run with since 1968)? Or is the CN engine's tender going to be mated to 4501?

Steve



Stoker equipment into the '01's tender, which, for the record, was off of a 2-10-2. The tender frame is all that remains, and even it was extended by the Central at some point. The tank and trucks were replaced in the early 80's.

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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:24 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:58 pm
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Location: Chicago USA
Wow...tender bodies sure have a short lifetime.

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:49 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:34 pm
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I imagine the 4501 ran with a single fireman in freight service, and you all are saying typically two fireman in passenger service. Is that due to skills/strength, or higher coal demand in high speed service?

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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:06 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:28 am
Posts: 124
I believe if you ask the staff at TVRM you will find that during the excursion years it was typical for the 4501 to run with 2 firemen, and often 2 coal cutters in the tender/riding. The 2 firemen rotated roughly every 30 miles and the coal cutters often were in that mix as well. Often the coal cutters were museum members who otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to experience riding on a mainline steam engine.

During actual service, and typically at the museum, 4501 utilized only one fireman a day. On the trips into NW Georgia that cab would be full of participants. One of the perks of being a participating museum member...is that you could ask or be called upon for some of these special trips.

BTW - this is pretty common knowledge.


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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:12 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:58 pm
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Location: Chicago USA
I don't think anyone was questioning excursion era practice but wondering why the workload during its freight career could be handled by one person (plus the hobo or brakeman who could be persuaded to "cut" (push forward) coal. Were the runs simply that short?

Having a stoker will make life aboard much easier but also decreases the opportunities for the experience of hand firing a larger engine on the high iron. So it's a tradeoff.

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:42 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:49 am
Posts: 634
If you think firing 4501 was bad, try hand firing a 900 class 2-10-2 up Raton Pass..in all seriousness, if you do not do it everyday, the average man could not do it. Modern lifestyles maake it almost impossible. I'm a powerlifter,and would love to try, but I'm not even sure I could do it for 12 hours a day, and do it well.


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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:02 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3031
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Here's some material on the 4501, including some specifications, but an important one is missing--grate area:

http://hawkinsrails.net/steam/4501/sr_4501.htm

As I recall, the British found that a grate area of about 50 square feet was about the maximum a fireman could handle with any consistency in the higher firing rates, and that's about the size of their fireboxes on the (relatively) small Pacifics that were their pinnacle of steam development. Pennsy's famous K-4s and its close cousin, the L-1s, had grate areas just under 70 square feet, and the K-4 in particular was considered a man-killer partially because of that. It's worth noting that most, if not all, K-4s got stokers (as did the great majority of the L-1s), and this reportedly transformed the performance of the locomotive as much as anything else the Pennsy tried with it over the years. The power the engine could develop was much more than what a man could supply in coal; machinery for feeding that coal changed that.

Pennsy's I-1 2-10-0s also had 70 square feet of grate area, but the power demand of that engine (and of the M-1 4-8-2, which was derived from it) caused all but their prototypes to be built with stokers from the start. Indeed, I have to wonder about the management on the PRR in the early 1920s and their apparent aversion to stokers. This road already had years of experience with Decapods, including finding out that a fireman couldn't quite keep up with one, yet they built a prototype M-1 4-8-2, a much larger engine with an even higher steam demand, and it was hand-fired! What were they thinking?


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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:25 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 1:19 am
Posts: 153
Location: Lexington, KY
softwerkslex wrote:
I imagine the 4501 ran with a single fireman in freight service, and you all are saying typically two fireman in passenger service. Is that due to skills/strength, or higher coal demand in high speed service?


Higher demand. 4501 likely ran branch lines most of her career, which would be 25 mph at most, with plenty of stops along the way to switch customers and other business.

Also, keep in mind that in steam days, most crews would only go 100-120 miles at most. Most of the excursions she ran would be double or triple that in a day.


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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:15 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:10 pm
Posts: 157
Location: Soddy Daisy, TN
jcmark611 wrote:

Higher demand. 4501 likely ran branch lines most of her career, which would be 25 mph at most, with plenty of stops along the way to switch customers and other business.


Not sure where people get this illusion, but the Ms's were used system wide and when built were the largest power on the railroad. Southern didn't have the large modern superpower other most roads did, so they did all sorts of service on the Southern, staying on the mainline, as well as lighter service lines, most times pulling decent size trains. A lot of the same can also be said for the Ks-1's like 630, too. Both engines running on the main today are seeing speeds similar to how they would have on the Southern, but with significantly lighter trains than average ones I seen in photographs for them.

Now this may be folklore, but still interesting. Heard stories that many called fireman would sign off if they saw they had a 4500 or 4600 (regardless of having a stoker or not) and didn't have an apprentice or relief fireman with. Keeping up with steam on the Ms's was not an easy task then either and I'm not certain that many, if any, of the others had the cylinders bushed down like the 4501.


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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:46 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 1:19 am
Posts: 153
Location: Lexington, KY
SR6900 wrote:
jcmark611 wrote:

Higher demand. 4501 likely ran branch lines most of her career, which would be 25 mph at most, with plenty of stops along the way to switch customers and other business.


Not sure where people get this illusion, but the Ms's were used system wide and when built were the largest power on the railroad. Southern didn't have the large modern superpower other most roads did, so they did all sorts of service on the Southern, staying on the mainline, as well as lighter service lines, most times pulling decent size trains. A lot of the same can also be said for the Ks-1's like 630, too. Both engines running on the main today are seeing speeds similar to how they would have on the Southern, but with significantly lighter trains than average ones I seen in photographs for them.

Now this may be folklore, but still interesting. Heard stories that many called fireman would sign off if they saw they had a 4500 or 4600 (regardless of having a stoker or not) and didn't have an apprentice or relief fireman with. Keeping up with steam on the Ms's was not an easy task then either and I'm not certain that many, if any, of the others had the cylinders bushed down like the 4501.


Given the size of her original tender, and lack of stoker, I guess most folks just assume she wasn't used to haul mainline hotshot freight. I can see work locals or other smaller jobs. That being said, much of Southern's main lines TN, KY, VA, IN weren't exactly 60 mph either.

I think we can both agree that she was probably asked to do more in her excursion career than her freight career.


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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:38 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
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Location: Strasburg, PA
Txhighballer wrote:
...in all seriousness, if you do not do it everyday, the average man could not do it. Modern lifestyles maake it almost impossible. I'm a powerlifter,and would love to try, but I'm not even sure I could do it for 12 hours a day, and do it well.

Good points about being in practice, and modern lifestyles.

It's amazing how much easier firing is (though it’s still bloody hard work in hot weather) once you have perfected your technique. Watching green firemen at work, it is almost painful to see the amount of energy they waste just getting each scoop full to the door, taking three steps to turn from the tender to the fire door and back for each scoop, stopping to wind up for their throw, etc. Once you get the hang of it, the right foot never moves, the left toe moves only enough to step on pedal. With a good scoop, it is pushed into the coal pile with the right hand only, the left hand picks up the shank of the scoop as it slides out of the pile, and both hands wind up for the throw all in one motion as the pedal is stepped on. The old quote is true, “The best fireman is a lazy fireman.”

Most people today don’t realize how hard the average man worked back then. Today, about 2,000 calories per day is considered a healthy diet for an average person. I read that on US Navy battleships of the WWI era, the standard diet was 6,000 calories per day, and you don’t see fat sailors in the photos of those days.

If I had to bet on a power lifter vs. a marathon runner for a long run during a hot day on the engine, I’ve got to go with the marathon runner. Thin and wiry seems to be the best build for stamina in hot weather. And don’t forget, back in the day, they were on the hook for up to sixteen hours, not just twelve, which brings up the other great quote, “Never walk when you can ride, never stand when you can sit, and never sit when you can lie down.” It’s all about conserving energy.

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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:18 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
jcmark611 wrote:
Given the size of her original tender, and lack of stoker, I guess most folks just assume she wasn't used to haul mainline hotshot freight. I can see work locals or other smaller jobs. That being said, much of Southern's main lines TN, KY, VA, IN weren't exactly 60 mph either.

I think we can both agree that she was probably asked to do more in her excursion career than her freight career.


Given frequent places to coal and water a locomotive in the steam era, larger tenders were not needed for many roads. For example, the L&N had two classes of big beefy 2-8-2s that were hand bombed, as well as 3 classes of Pacifics, all with smallish tenders. Both the 2-8-2s and 4-6-2s were used on mainline trains, and remained hand bombed until retirement. The Southern had comparable sized power.

4501 spent the later part of her 1st Southern career working on the Louisville to St. Louis mainline, out of Princeton, IN. The portion of the line out of Louisville, up Duncan Hill, and into western Indiana is rather "roller coaster" in profile. I'm sure she worked mainline freights at faster track speeds.

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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:12 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:34 am
Posts: 371
Well okay, 4501 spent her first 100 years without a stoker. Now with a new firebox and backhead being installed on Southern's first Mikado, it was the perfect opportunity to install one and fortunately the CN 5288 provided the correct type.

Installing the mechanical firing device will reduce the amount of cold air introduced into her firebox. It will reduce the amount of support needed when the locomotive is out on the NS mainline.

Having been one of those who hand fired the girl, I can attest that I didn't think she was any harder to fire than any other locomotive. As Kelly pointed out, its all about technique and knowing the railroad. In the 1990's we ran the Master Mechanics Front End calculations and found a number of problems. We raised her draft sheet, removed a top row of arch brick, and installed a different style exhaust nozzle. The results were a signficant reduction in the amount of unburned carbon emanating from the stack.

We've also acquired a Chinese knock-off of the Worthington SA Feedwater Heater. It's a size 3-1/2 which is what many of her Ms Class sisters were equipped with. This will also improve the life of the boiler and improve its steaming capability. Our intentions are to install the system in the same manner as the Southern Railway did.

We've made great strides in the boiler work but there is still a long ways to go. We're trying to understand modifications made to the running gear which we believe resulted from an accident involving 4501 in the early 1940's. As with 630, 4501 needs to run trouble free once she hits the mainline.

Speaking of 630, the #4 axle has been converted to the Southern Pacific spring pad lubricator design oil cellar. Proof tests will be perfomed soon. Following the conclusion of the testing, the remainder will be converted. The decision to change from grease to oil cellar lubrication was made after determining that today's varities of block grease are not suitable for operation above 25 mph. Yes, we tried them all.

Someone asked about 5288. TVRM's focus is currently on supporting the NS 21st Century Steam Program. This includes 4501, 630, and 610. Any further decisions regarding the 5288 will be made in the future. 5288 will remain on display at our Grand Junction station. Her cab is blocked off as we do not have ramps leading up to it. Any external appearance changes will be limited to the missing stoker engine. I do believe the 5288 was hand fired when built. Don't look for any green paint to show up on the 5288.

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