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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:10 am 

Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:41 pm
Posts: 377
Location: Minneapolis, MN
My understanding of the babbitted brasses in the SY is that the babbit is intended to be sacrificial and renewed as required. The locomotive is NEVER supposed to run on the brasses by themselves and it is a major maintenance faux pas to allow the babbit to break through to the brass.


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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:32 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5251
Location: southeastern USA
[quote="Jeff LisowskiGlad I'm not the only one who got that![/quote]

OK, I tried but maybe Lewis is too far back for popular humor today...

dave

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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:34 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:21 pm
Posts: 70
Grand Canyon Railway 4960's main drivers have been running on oil lubrication without Babbitt since 2008. At track speed, that's about 210 rpm. During the summer months, typical bearing temps are 120 to 130 degrees.

Eric


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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:56 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:41 pm
Posts: 814
Location: Bowling Green, KY
Eric,

I know that during the (at the least) first year of operation all of the axles ran scorching hot and were removed atleast once each (save the 3 if I recall). What was done mechanically to overcome this issue? Some of the initial issues were caused by the use of militec in the mechanical lubricator which broke down the animal fat in the biodegradable bb&j rendering it less than a lubricant. Specifically, what was the mechanical fix to prevent the bearings from exceeding the 150 degree limit of the oil and thus self destructing?

Glad you guys are getting some milage out of my"going green" idea ;)

Cheers, Jason


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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:58 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:21 pm
Posts: 70
Jason,

The big changes were to run straight bio PB&J without the additive and to add a heater to the lubricator, which keeps the oil from separating. Once we were able to get a reliable supply of oil to the bearings, things started running great.

We also added a wood stiffner to the cellar mops, as we found that they were curling up in the corners from the rotation of the axle.

Eric


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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:49 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:41 pm
Posts: 814
Location: Bowling Green, KY
Eric,

Two questions..... First, why did a heater have to be added to the lubricator? The 60 and 29 had lubricator heater lines circa '06-'07. Second, why was the oil seperating? Bill P. had told me that was only a problem at temps down near 30 degrees.... Furthermore, the oil it's marketed for drip cups, sight feed drip lubricators, tender journal, etc..... If it needed to be heated it would not work for any out these things.

Cheers, Jason


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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:10 am 

Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 12
Not to get to far off topic, but is there any current pictures of the 4501? Love to see how far this overhaul is getting!

-Daulph


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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:13 am 

Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:21 pm
Posts: 70
Jason,

We added a new lubricator dedicated to the driving boxes in 2008. For the first season, we did not have a heater on it, as it seemed counter productive to heat a lubricant that you were using to cool a bearing.

However, we did detect separation of oil in the lubricator, in the box cellars, and in the stored oil drums. After talking with Bill P. we determined that since we purchased the oil in the winter, it probably froze during shipping and caused the fats to separate out. Per Bill's instructions, we have been heating the oil in the drums to above 120 degrees and agitating to bring everything back into solution, then we heat it on the engine to 120 degrees to make sure it stays that way.

Eric


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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:52 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:58 pm
Posts: 1195
Location: Chicago USA
Seems like a lot of trouble just to "green" the lubrication.

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:01 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:41 pm
Posts: 814
Location: Bowling Green, KY
Eric,

Not to nit pick.... But, oil does nothing to actually "cool" a bearing lest it is some sort of high volume flood type recirculating system. The "heaters" in lubricators act to not just keep the oil warm in winter operation but also keep the oil warm enough so as to allow for consistent, reliable and peak operation of the pump. Detroit calls for oil to be heated to no less than 100 degrees (their poor design actually requires this for basic reliable operation) with an ideal temp of between 100 and 200 degrees or about 150 degrees. Nathan (or the chinese clone equivalent) calls for an ideal operating temp which would require heating (the exact number escapes me). Even if oil is heated to 150 degrees, by the time it reaches it's destination (keeping in mind of the VERY slow feed rate) the oil will have cooled significantly.
If there was no heater circa '08 then how did the oil get hot enough for the militec to separate the tallow out of solution in the lubricator? The temp (per the manufacturer) has to be fairly high, beyond that of the arizona air temp, to break down animal fat....

Steve,

It's not alot to go through if one does not have to learn the hard way. Had the oil never been allowed to freeze, and were it bought (today considering the ultra limited consumption comparative to pre 2008) in limited 5 gallon pail quantities to be consumed over no more than a six month period then special consideration would not be required. The stuff, if it doesn't sit for extended periods, does not require special treatment as long as it is kept above 50 degrees (per Bill P.).

Cheers, Jason


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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:37 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:58 pm
Posts: 1195
Location: Chicago USA
I guess I never realized that lubricators always had provision for heating. I thought it was only for the bio-lubes.

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: 4501 With a Stoker
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:54 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 7:16 am
Posts: 86
Location: Bristol, Virginia
Just curious, who are all of the "professional" players working on 4501's rebuild. I've seen some photos online of Gary Bensen and Doug Karhan. It seems that TVRM and NS are sparing no expense and wanting it done in a relatively quick timeframe.

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Goose Creek Railroad
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