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 Post subject: Wallstay rotary snap tool
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:15 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:00 am
Posts: 3
Location: NSW, Australia
I am posting this on behalf of a friend. He is seeking either the actual pneumatic rotator that fits into a rivet gun that provides the rotary motion to a wall stay beading tool, (not the actual stay forming tool itself) or drawings or detail photos of same, or any information that may enable him to manufacture one assuming that no body has one that they may be prepared to sell. Also does anybody know who used to manufacture these?
Many thanks

Ian


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 Post subject: Re: Wallstay rotary snap tool
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:32 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:41 pm
Posts: 814
Location: Bowling Green, KY
Greetings,

In all of my literature I have never seen an actual pneumatic device as you describe. I have seen two variations on a "rotary snap", 1) the snap has a hexagonal shape and fits into a rivet hammer with the same. This allows one to rotate the gun and thus the snap so as to properly utilize the tool. There was one manufacturer which generally marketed the hex shank guns, cannot remember the name....... anyone? 2) the snap has a standard round shank with a two piece split clamp which acts as a handle to rotate the snap as it is being driven upon. I have always envisioned this method to be a two person job.

What does your snap look like?

Cheers, Jason


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 Post subject: Re: Wallstay rotary snap tool
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:19 am 

Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:47 pm
Posts: 89
Location: Portland, Or
Using a "merry go round" tool has never required a special handle or rotating device in my experience. Roll the snap between your thumb and fore finger as you first come up on the head. When you have gone around once wobble the gun and it will spin on its own. Do a light slow pass around at the end to leave a nice finish. You can make a head that looks machined this way.

Best

Stathi

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Best,

Stathi

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Efstathios I. Pappas, MS
Cumbres and Toltec Scenic Railroad
spappas@cumbrestoltec.com
209 603 7363


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 Post subject: Re: Wallstay rotary snap tool
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:24 am 

Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:47 pm
Posts: 89
Location: Portland, Or
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fN4juqEZ8Lc

This is an example the technique discussed above using a 40 gun. The process is fast and superior to using a flat tool in my opinion.

Stathi

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Best,

Stathi

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Efstathios I. Pappas, MS
Cumbres and Toltec Scenic Railroad
spappas@cumbrestoltec.com
209 603 7363


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 Post subject: Re: Wallstay rotary snap tool
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:35 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:54 pm
Posts: 61
From your discription it sounds like your looking for a air hammer that also has a rotary motion .These are common in the UK for caulking staybolts that are not driven over but are nutted .The caulking tool has a ID that fits over the staybolt so that it caulks the the sheet into the OD of that threads. This practice was not used in the USA.I would suggest would contact the UK people . You can contact me and I could give you some leads on boiler repair sites in UK.


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 Post subject: Re: Wallstay rotary snap tool
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:30 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:41 pm
Posts: 814
Location: Bowling Green, KY
SouPac wrote:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fN4juqEZ8Lc

This is an example the technique discussed above using a 40 gun. The process is fast and superior to using a flat tool in my opinion.

Stathi


This may well explain the appearance of bolts driven in the boilers of logging/industrial locomotives, some porters, vulcans, traction engines, etc. Where did you come by the spec for this process?

Cheers, Jason


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 Post subject: Re: Wallstay rotary snap tool
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:56 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:47 pm
Posts: 89
Location: Portland, Or
I cannot claim to have come up with the process, this is the method Doyle and company have used on 4449, sm 205, etc. This does result in a superior looking head, does a great job of making sure the bolt is totally expanded in the sheet, and is fast and efficient. I grind my own tools for the process, and have done over 1,500 bolts this way. The bolt is set in the threads from the inside using a cup snap and 60 gun being backed up by a buck on the outside. This process is for the external head.

Best

Stathi

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Best,

Stathi

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Efstathios I. Pappas, MS
Cumbres and Toltec Scenic Railroad
spappas@cumbrestoltec.com
209 603 7363


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 Post subject: Re: Wallstay rotary snap tool
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:24 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:41 pm
Posts: 814
Location: Bowling Green, KY
To continue the educational value of this thread, please do post some photos of the snap next to a tap measure from several different angles. As well as the adapter that allows the chipping hammer tool to go into a 60 gun.

Cheers, Jason


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 Post subject: Re: Wallstay rotary snap tool
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:27 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:00 am
Posts: 3
Location: NSW, Australia
I do have a picture that would explain exactly what I mean that I have been trying to upload but keep getting error messages. Maybe someone would be so kind as to upload it if I emailed it to them and there is interest in this. These stays are normal screwed steel stays beaded over on both sides and not nutted.

Normally in railroad out depots here they would be beaded using the merry go round technique described- the tool that my friend is after worked exactly the same way except that it's rotary action is powered, and as it fits into a large rivet gun it can very quickly form a head- often in one revolution. These tools were only used in major railroad workshops here in New South Wales and are purely and simply a means of getting the task done faster.

My friend has started a business repairing heritage boilers so often has a lot of stays to do, and if he can do them quicker, obviously can do the work cheaper.

I am surprised that these apparently were not used in the US as they were introduced c1940's when we were re-equiping during the war and the majority of our tooling was coming out of America lend lease so I thought that Ingersol Rand or Consolidated Pneumatic more than likely supplied them.

Ian


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 Post subject: Re: Wallstay rotary snap tool
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:51 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:47 pm
Posts: 89
Location: Portland, Or
Jason, the merry go round tool is used in a 40 gun although smaller guns just take longer. The 60 gun is used with a cup snap to set the threads in the sheets. As for speeding up the process I figure three heads in less than a minute to be adequate productivity as the video demonstrates. Starting with untapped holes I have been able to finish 70 bolts in an 8 hour day (tap holes, insert, 60 gun to set threads, 40 gun merry go round exterior heads). With people trading off on the gun work one could get much more.

Stathi

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Best,

Stathi

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Efstathios I. Pappas, MS
Cumbres and Toltec Scenic Railroad
spappas@cumbrestoltec.com
209 603 7363


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 Post subject: Re: Wallstay rotary snap tool
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:03 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:06 pm
Posts: 2166
Location: Thomaston & White Plains
Stathi,

Does the snap have a teat or raised portion that fits into the telltale hole of the bolt?

Also, could you (or someone) post a closeup of the finished head, and perhaps of the unfinished head (a "before & after")?

Thanks,

Howard P.

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 Post subject: Re: Wallstay rotary snap tool
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:31 am 

Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:05 am
Posts: 400
Print for UP staybolt snaps and beading tools.(264 views, only 10 downloads)Image


Attachment:
mgroundUP.jpg
mgroundUP.jpg [ 59.82 KiB | Viewed 1447 times ]


Attachments:
sbsnapUP.jpg
sbsnapUP.jpg [ 102.73 KiB | Viewed 1447 times ]


Last edited by M Austin on Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Wallstay rotary snap tool
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:41 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 9:07 pm
Posts: 142
Location: The beautiful piney woods of East Texas
I am curious, do you feel these tools will/would work as well on current staybolt materials as they did on older wrought iron bolt stock?


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 Post subject: Re: Wallstay rotary snap tool
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:13 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:47 pm
Posts: 89
Location: Portland, Or
My tools work better with modern staybolt stocks than the wrought iron interestingly enough. The heads look much better in my opinion and the tool does not sink in and catch like in the ultra soft wrought iron. Sa 36 or sa 675 in the 55,000 to low 60,000 psi range works very easily.

Stathi

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Best,

Stathi

________________________

Efstathios I. Pappas, MS
Cumbres and Toltec Scenic Railroad
spappas@cumbrestoltec.com
209 603 7363


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 Post subject: Re: Wallstay rotary snap tool
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:26 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:54 pm
Posts: 61
I had some orginial beaded head staybolt snaps which I tried with a 60 hammer on steel staybolts and I could not drive a head on the bolt. The head of the snap are like the drawing on this thread. I would guess the worked well with the soft Iron staybolts in common use during the steam era.
Both Thor and CP made special staybolt hammers which were a 60 gun with a pneumatic jack at the rear instead of a handle the CP brand used standard snaps . The Thor staybolt hammer used a special bead head staybolt snap which had a hex on the back end that indexed with the bore of the hammer . The bead head area of the snap had 3 or 4 projections which worked the material as the hammer was rotated manually forming the head of the bolt while the jack extension heald the hammer against the staybolt. I have only seen one of these in person and did not use it. I have a 1920 era Thor catalog that lists this and pictures two hammers being used to double gun staybolts with the boiler off the frames laying on its side.


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