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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:05 pm 
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This topic is being moved to the Railfanning section. You are invited to continue with the snark, complaining, whining and criticism there. I am going to open a fresh topic in the Interchange for the express purpose of discussing the repair and future operation of the LIRR G5. The discussion in Interchange will be devoid of whining, complaining and criticism. Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:09 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 11:22 am
Posts: 80
Location: Northeast Pa.
G. W. Laepple wrote:
Let's do a bit of math here. Strasburg has the use of No. 39 for 48 years. Three years for the initial overhaul and three 15-year cycles per the FRA regulations equals 48 years. There's your answer.


I was wondering how they came up with 48 years, ahhhh. I'm glad it will be restored and operating again and will donate to the cause!


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:20 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8355
Location: Baltimore, MD
I'm watching the inflamed passions and debate here from afar, as a not-that-impartial observer. As a PRR territory native and longtime enthusiast of short, powerful, stockly 4-6-0's (give me a LNER B1 or B17 over a Stanier "Black Five" any day!), I've long wanted to see a G5 get a chance to strut its stuff over the Long Island, P-RSL or Pittsburgh regions.

But let's be honest. Long Island has TWO G5s's. Both have been the subject of fix-up attempts. Even if one were to get running, you don't realistically have a place on Long Island for it to run. Running a G5 with a caboose in an industrial plant just isn't going to cut it. Absent a commitment to a LIRR steam excursion program or the formation of an independent excursion line with the purchase of a LIRR branch, fixing up 39 or 35 to operation on Long Island is simply going to create another 1522/819/700/1361/643/etc. situation: an operable engine with no place to flex its running gear.

I'd sure want to see the terms of the agreement between the RMLI and Strasburg before criticizing it--or, for that matter, donating money. What little we've been told leaves a lot of room for debate or discussion, but that's between them, not us.


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:58 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:18 am
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Location: San Francisco
A topic like this is going to invite controversy, and I don't understand why this board is not the proper place to politely discuss and debate the issues. One could say there is a "foamer" mentality behind the implied attitude that "we don't care about the details as long as it means one more steam engine running." I am not at all sure what the correct topics related to "preservation" and "operation" are. Are we to only talk about crown sheet thickness and whether Strasburg should use grease or oil to lubricate axle bearings?

From the west coast, the simple arithmetic sees this as a deal that may work to bring a handsome locomotive into operation, and that to me is a good thing, but it is also obvious this deal is going to leave a lot of people upset...people who thought they were working and donating to bring steam to Long Island.

RMLI's mission statement focuses on preservation and restoration of Long Island railroad history, but it does not say where this is supposed to take place. Nevertheless, I am sure a lot of people had reasonably assumed it would happen in Long Island.
Quote:
Dedicated to the restoration, preservation and interpretation of the history and artifacts pertaining to the railroads which participated in the growth of Long Island, its communities and industries for the entertainment, edification, and good of present and future generations.

I think there are reasonable questions that could be asked about whether this deal is in the best interest of the non-profit RMLI and its membership. Do the best interests of the artifact have greater bearing? Is operation in the best interest of 39?

In the meantime, passions are going to be inflamed, and people are going to insist that they are right and others are wrong. This should be okay. People have different opinions and we should all be a little better at hearing them without freaking out. Disagreement is not a bug, it's a feature.

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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:32 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
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Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Well, now that this subject got kicked over to here due to alleged poster misbehavior, I might as well stir the pot. . . :D

How do we want to paint this thing? Normally you would have seen a Long Island Rail Road steam locomotive painted like its Pennsy counterparts, but the LIRR for a time had several G5s, (and I think the 39 may have been one of them) with an unusual large, fancy "sunrise" herald on the tank. Can you imagine that on the Strasburg?

(Can anyone post a photo of such a herald on a LIRR steam engine? Decals of that scheme were offered for model builders, and at least one photo has been published in black and white, but I couldn't find anything online.)

Bit of trivia: Both the Long Island Rail Road and the Strasburg Rail Road are two companies that still spell "railroad" as two words in their corporate names.


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:02 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:13 pm
Posts: 151
Location: Southold NY
Good morning Gentle Forum Members,

Thank you for your interest and comments regarding the exciting news that there is a workable plan now in place to not only restore LIRR G5s Steam Locomotive 39 – but a workable plan to successfully operate it.

I know there will be more questions and comments as the days proceed. Some questions may not be answered in a public Forum simply because they are no one else’s business beyond the principals, their members and their shareholders. I will however try to answer those questions that are not proprietary.

Steve . . . . . . please do not make donations to the #39 restoration effort via PayPal or Internet. Please write a check to “RMLI Engine 39” and mail it to the Museum at P.O. Box 726, Greenport NY 11944-0726. Your donation will be properly recorded that way and it keeps the accounting straight. PayPal and Internet donations should be for general support donations only.

Thank you for any donation you may make – I have been admonished, BUT . . . . . . . . . “if one million people across America donated one dollar, the job of fundraising would be done and the cranes and trucks would begin to move #39 to Strasburg.”

East of Eden . . . . . . . the Railroad Museum of Long Island wholly owns the steam locomotive #39.

The Suffolk County Board of Supervisors refused the locomotive when it was offered to the County in 1955. Then the locomotive passed from the LIRR to the “Museums at Stony Brook.” In 1979 it passed to the “Engine 39 Restoration Fund,” and in 1991 the locomotive passed to the Railroad Museum of Long Island. Restoration efforts have been ongoing for at least thirty-three years.

As for other equipment in the Museum’s collection, maintenance and stabilization shall continue. As all of our equipment is outside exposed to the weather, painting is the greatest work that we can do. Progress will continue on H.K. Porter narrow gauge #1 to make it an operating exhibit, remaining on her trailer and able to move from the Museum to Festivals and “outreach” locations. BEDT 16 will be put back on her wheels and then the finish painting will commence. All of the other cars in the collection have been recently painted.

Pennsy Power . . . . . . . . you hit the nail on the head. The RMLI does not own track. The Grumman/EPCAL site is not a sustainable option for running #39, it is a growing industrial site taking carloads of material and the owners/tenants and RMLI do not need to be jockeying around each other. The LIRR is a NY State Authority that runs a commuter railroad, not a tourist line. The challenges of running an 80+ year old steam locomotive on LIRR tracks make it impossible at this time.

The RMLI does not have the resources to sustain a steam tourist operation even if it had permission to use LIRR tracks. There are no water/coaling stations along the North Fork, they would have to be built – we could not burden the volunteer fire departments to be filling the tender every weekend! Both turntables on the North Fork are out of service and would cost millions of dollars to install and/or put back into service. Qualified engineers, firemen, and skilled steam engine mechanics are not plentiful on Long Island. The RMLI does not own an acceptable servicing facility to provide heavy maintenance and repair to #39. I could go on, but.

limejuice . . . . . . . . #39 will remain a COAL burning steam locomotive.

I truly enjoyed the comment: “Some people would complain if they were hung with a new rope.” Lincoln Penn, thank you for my moments of laughter, I may use that one myself!

Mr. Ruiz . . . . . . . . . I am pleased you have quoted our Museum’s mission statement. I take the Mission of the Museum very seriously.

To not exercise this opportunity to restore and operate #39 would be very poor stewardship on the part of our Board of Trustees. As #39 stands today, partially restored, in pieces, with two million dollars of work remaining, to not attempt this plan would sign a death warrant for the locomotive. It is one of three remaining G5s locomotives in the world, to let it rust and rot would be a disservice to the people of New York State and Long Island.

I personally believe it would be a disservice to the entire Pennsylvania Railroad Region to let #39 go to waste. The historic importance of a G5s Class locomotive makes in more valuable than many other locomotives. It enabled further eastward development of Long Island. It is an example of American industrial engineering at its most creative. Once it is restored it must operate to remain viable.

Undoubtedly there will be those individuals who will be upset, angry, sad that #39 will not initially run on Long Island for at least forty-eight years. I believe those people will be the minority. I can report to the Forum, that the announcement was met with applause and cheers at the Long Island Sunrise Trail Chapter NRHS meeting Friday night. There are many supporters and people who remember the G5s when it was at work and they hope to ride behind her again before they die.

Ross . . . . . . . . as for painting and lettering, Mr. Joe Acri of the PRRT&HS is on our restoration committee. He has already begun research on the #39 just for this purpose. Preliminary discussions lean toward PRR Engine Green for the locomotive with the simple 39 and LONG ISLAND RAIL ROAD on her flanks. I do not envision the “Sunrise Special” herald on her tender or the Dashing Dan logo on her cab.

Thank you again for your interest and support,

Don Fisher, President
Railroad Museum of Long Island


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:41 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:01 pm
Posts: 85
J3a-614 wrote:
Well, now that this subject got kicked over to here due to alleged poster misbehavior, I might as well stir the pot. . . :D

How do we want to paint this thing? Normally you would have seen a Long Island Rail Road steam locomotive painted like its Pennsy counterparts, but the LIRR for a time had several G5s, (and I think the 39 may have been one of them) with an unusual large, fancy "sunrise" herald on the tank. Can you imagine that on the Strasburg?

(Can anyone post a photo of such a herald on a LIRR steam engine? Decals of that scheme were offered for model builders, and at least one photo has been published in black and white, but I couldn't find anything online.)

Bit of trivia: Both the Long Island Rail Road and the Strasburg Rail Road are two companies that still spell "railroad" as two words in their corporate names.


Just for the sake of accuracy, it was LIRR #21 that wore the Sunrise Special herald. The tender for #21 was preserved with #35 when that locomotive was retired, so it still exists, even if plans are to scrap it due to severe corrosion.

Hopefully Steve Lynch doesn't mind if I link to a photo on his website.

Image

Since we are on the railfan forum talking about paint schemes. The LIRR was under PRR control from 1900 to 1950. As most people know, the Standard Railroad of the World had very particular ideas about how things should be done. The LIRR would ofter paint smokebox doors black to show that they had an identity apart from the PRR. This is something that would be nice to see at Strasburg, at least on occasion.


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:44 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:13 pm
Posts: 151
Location: Southold NY
Gentle Forum Members,

I'm dragging this post over from the "technical" discussion threads as it too relates to some interest regarding #39's paint scheme and "where she can run."
.
.
. . . . . . . Good afternoon Jeff,

The Lease does allow for "off property" operation of #39 with the mutual acceptance and agreement on the particulars by BOTH principals.

Additionally, we have provided for periodic livery changes to the locomotive for photo opportunities, movies, etc. The RMLI has an active relationship with movie makers and professional photographers and we recognize the potential for use of the locomotive, exclusively in Strasburg's care, for those projects if they present themselves. . . . . . . .
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.
.
Let me be clear, the Strasburg Rail Road Company is the RMLI's Contractor for operating #39 after restoration. They are our EXCLUSIVE operators and they will be responsible for the fine running and maintenance of this G5s. They have the facilities, resources and knowledge to run and care for this historic engine, we at the RMLI do not. Additionally, the Strasburg Rail Road Company has the ideal platform to present this locomotive to the public for the RMLI, we do not have that platform. The Strasburg Rail Road Company, our partners, will forward the Mission of the RMLI with this effort.

Thank you again for your interest and all the buzz! I'm off to raise a million dollars :-)

Don Fisher, President

Railroad Museum of Long Island


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:13 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:47 pm
Posts: 475
Mr. Fisher, thank you for taking the time to answer many of the questions on this feed and putting a lot of the arguments to rest. I'm sure many others, along with myself, really appreciate it.

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Mark Z. Yerkes
Amateur Rail Historian


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:22 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:47 pm
Posts: 475
And for those of you freaking out the RMLI isn't getting anything out of this, it's a 48-year LEASE. Dictionary.com definition of lease: a contract or instrument conveying property to another for a specified period or for a period determinable at the will of either lessor or lessee in consideration of rent or other compensation. RMLI will be getting something from Strasburg for the next 48 years in exchange for #39. That's how a lease works.

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Mark Z. Yerkes
Amateur Rail Historian


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:10 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:13 pm
Posts: 151
Location: Southold NY
Thank you Mark,

Yes, what the Railroad Museum of Long Island hopes to accomplish is the successful restoration of a thirty-three year effort and then the ability to properly present and run that locomotive for the masses. For three decades we have not been successful, we understand we can not do this alone. Thank you for your understanding and support.

Don


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:14 pm 

Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:56 am
Posts: 28
Thank you Don for answering some of my questions. I understand more after hearing from one of the parties involved. Now if we could only hear from the other party involved however, I doubt they care to commit on this board since we are only a bunch of foamers over here.

How sad this thread has been spilt onto two forms so as not to offend certain people and keep others from having to mingle with so-called foamers. Basically we are saying in this case to only talk about crown sheets and shut up about anything else referring to the G5. There were many great questions and issues posted here that have just as much to do about preservation as crown sheets. These projects are far more than nuts and bolts and have more to do with issues such as funding, logistics, interest, politics, environments, and capabilities. These things are super important and no new crown sheet gets made until these issues have been dealt with first.

And dealing with them is the real trick of preservation and I would say the most important part of a project such as this. Parts and solutions to the machine’s problems can be made and fixed but these issues are not so simple. Every organization faces these challenges and it is important to share that information for others to learn from.

However, according to this board that’s railfaning and not preservation. So don’t post such questions or issues where the pros can chime in because that’s putting nasty foam on their foaming over parts here. At least Don has the decency to cross over to the dark side to answer some of our questions and address many of our concerns. I am in no way trying to be mean here to anyone but I just feel this attitude is a little silly and defeating to the preservation movement.

Thanks again Don for taking the time to speak with us and I hope the foam was not too overwhelming. Good luck with the project and my check is already on its way.

Pennsy Power


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:15 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:13 pm
Posts: 151
Location: Southold NY
Hello Pennsy,

Not a problem. I am watching both threads and it is my pleasure to post in both categories.

Don


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:23 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:13 pm
Posts: 151
Location: Southold NY
Gentle Forum Members,

Our Museum Webmaster has kindly placed the Agreement, Lease and Scope of Work for the #39 Project on our RMLI website. You may view it at your leisure at www.rmli.org and follow the "Document" link to the page. Click on the document at will.

Best to all,
Don Fisher, President

railroad Museum of Long Island


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:36 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:08 am
Posts: 213
Location: Whitefield, ME
Don,

I hope you are open to a suggestion for your website. I only see a one line blurb on the home page about "important information" regarding 39, yet the wonder bread car update takes up a huge amount of space. Perhaps your critical fundraiser should be placed a bit more prominently or in a way which is more easily navigable. Otherwise keep up the great work and, most importantly, keep us posted on how the fundraising is progressing.

Thanks,
Stephen Piwowarski


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