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 Post subject: ITM and NKP 587....
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:28 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:49 am
Posts: 635
I recently heard the Indiana Transportation Museum is now isolated from outside rail. Anyone know anything about the situation? I would have thought that they would have been on pretty good terms with Norfolk Southern from their past relationship in using NKP 587 on a few trips.


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 Post subject: Re: ITM and NKP 587....
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:22 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:28 am
Posts: 124
The ITM connects to the outside world with other railroads other than NS. A Google Earth shows that their tracks extend...not accounting for track conditions...but the tracks do extend all the way out to Kokomo. In Kokomo they are connected to what appears to be the TP&W. For those that are a fan of "street running", Kokomo is the place to see that. ITM also has operated trains on the Indiana Rail Road at different points in the past.

I recall running across someone saying that ITM was no longer connected to the world. I have not seen anything to that effect on their website, or on any of say the top 10 railroad blogs/boards. I have to imagine that if an organization the size of ITM was being cut-off from the world...you would hear a major uproar concerning their isolation. Despite the fact that 587's overhaul has moved as slow as molasses...ITM has continued to run all sorts of trains in the Indianapolis metro area. The ITM has over 38 miles of operating railroad to run on.

Google Earth is a magical place...where often times you can seek out all kinds of railroad goodies. They can't stay hidden to well from space you know. The most recent shot in the ITM area was taken in 2013.


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 Post subject: Re: ITM and NKP 587....
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:40 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:28 am
Posts: 124
http://nkp587.blogspot.com


Check out the blog above to see what is up at ITM...if you haven't ever been to ITM you're missing out.


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 Post subject: Re: ITM and NKP 587....
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:12 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:14 am
Posts: 217
Location: Baltimore, MD
ITM trackage is not curreently connected to the outside world. The connection at Tipton, the north end of the line, was permanently severed. I suspect that the connection at the southern end could be re-established if any freight business ever materialized. The Railroad is actually owned by the Hoosier Heritage Port Authority. See the Wikipedea article for details, including the fact that there is currently no track connection.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoosier_He ... _Authority

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 Post subject: Re: ITM and NKP 587....
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:26 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:33 am
Posts: 62
Location: Batavia, Ohio
Actually the line is cut in Tipton, IN. If you follow the railroad on Google Maps from Nobelsville to Tipton you will that their railroad is cut at E. Washington Street and N. East Street in Tipton, IN. I vaguely recall this happening in the late 90's I think when NS removed the diamond and the rest of the connection there. I believe this happened about the the time Rail Tex purchased the CERA/CIND I think. Some one from ITM will know more.

As for the south end of the line if I recall that connection was removed before the connection in Tipton was severed. So ITM is completely isolated from the outside world.

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 Post subject: Re: ITM and NKP 587....
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:36 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:49 am
Posts: 635
That is unfortunate that they are currently "marooned", but hopefully a connection to the outside world can be re -established. Anyone for a 587/4501 doubleheader? As far as I know, there have been no standard guage Mikado doubleheaders in the modern era....Their blog is excellent and they are indeed making steady progress to get the 587 back in steam.


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 Post subject: Re: ITM and NKP 587....
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:33 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:28 am
Posts: 124
After re-examining the Google Earth map the ITM track is severed at Tipton, IN...my bad!

I am sure if ITM needs outside access...and they have some solid passenger cars...they will make their way.


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 Post subject: Re: ITM and NKP 587....
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:40 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5023
Txhighballer wrote:
As far as I know, there have been no standard guage Mikado doubleheaders in the modern era.


An interesting statement. And you may well be right! I recall when the Burlington was still operating steam fantrips, I hoped that one of the sponsoring clubs might propose a doubleheaded Mike trip using the Q's fantrip 2-8-2 #4960 as one of the engines. The railroad had a number of Mikado's still around in those days including the ones that they leased to the Bevier & Southern at various times, including numbers 4943, 4955 and the final one, 4963. Alas, that doubleheaded Mike trip never happened.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: ITM and NKP 587....
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:59 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:49 am
Posts: 635
Les Beckman wrote:
Txhighballer wrote:
As far as I know, there have been no standard guage Mikado doubleheaders in the modern era.


An interesting statement. And you may well be right! I recall when the Burlington was still operating steam fantrips, I hoped that one of the sponsoring clubs might propose a doubleheaded Mike trip using the Q's fantrip 2-8-2 #4960 as one of the engines. The railroad had a number of Mikado's still around in those days including the ones that they leased to the Bevier & Southern at various times, including numbers 4943, 4955 and the final one, 4963. Alas, that doubleheaded Mike trip never happened.

Les


Everyones' memory might be a little bit better than mine, but from what I recall, there have been these combinations:

2-8-2/ 4-6-0 ( It was a fluke but it happened, Texas State Railroad...and perhaps..on the Sierra?)

2-8-2/ 4-6-2 ( Southern)

2-8-2/ 2-8-0 (Southern)

2-8-2/ 4-8-4 ( Norfolk Southern, Steam Tours )

2-8-2/4-8-4/ 2-6-6-4 ( Norfolk Southern )

There may be more, but that's all I can recall at the moment...


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 Post subject: Re: ITM and NKP 587....
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:13 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5023
And the Burlington itself doubleheaded their Mike (4960) with their famous O5b class Northern #5632. But, as I said, two 2-8-2's on a trip never happened.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: ITM and NKP 587....
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:57 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:37 pm
Posts: 219
Location: Detroit, Michigan
A doubleheader you forgot, which was probably the last famous one was:

NKP 587 (2-8-2)/NKP 765 (2-8-4) both working for old NS Steam Program.

That was back @ the 1993 NRHS Chicago Convention. Here's a few video clips. Not my of course.

Re-upload at 4:3 picture NKP 587 & 765 doublehead to Chicago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NInpQAXh6Bk

Nickel Plate 587 and 765 Double-header through Fort Wayne
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9icGzBeicJ8

Sneak Peeks - Nickel Plate Doubleheader
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJSd4DvGSeA

Spring of 1993 Chicago Rails, Floods, Detours and the NRHS Convention
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z600da9mTA

Seems like we need a NEW social media movement for NKP 587 to help get her back on NS rails. Fire Up 587 Anyone?!?!?

Would it be fun to see her alongside N&W 611, NKP 765, SOU 630, & SOU 4501 again?

Enjoy! ^_^

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http://www.michiganrailroads.com/MichRR ... ubHome.htm
http://www.bluewaternrhs.com/


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 Post subject: Re: ITM and NKP 587....
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:14 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 7:57 am
Posts: 2359
Location: Faulkland, Delaware
I think some Mikes were double-headed at the EBT.

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Wilmington, DE

If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem.


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 Post subject: Re: ITM and NKP 587....
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:54 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8399
Location: Baltimore, MD
tomgears wrote:
I think some Mikes were double-headed at the EBT.


And triple-headed, and a one-time-only quadruple-header years ago......


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 Post subject: Re: ITM and NKP 587....
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:08 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:18 pm
Posts: 160
Location: Anderson, Indiana
I was hoping we'd hear from an ITM member on this, but I can answer at least some of direct questions, just can't answer the why kinds of questions.

A couple of things that may not be apparent if you haven't seen the track setup in Indianapolis or the history of track abandonment / former use. In the Nickel Plate / Monon era, the tracks ran side by side south of approximately 33rd Street. These tracks then went south past the Belt RR wye around 21st Street, crossing a bridge over 10th Street and then continuing on to Union Station alongside the NYC mainline (now CSX). The 10th Street bridge was taken out quite some time ago, it was primarily a passenger train era convenience. So those who mentioned the idea that the south end was severed along time ago are really correct. Of course the Monon roadbed is now a bike trail down to 10th Street.

The diamond at Tipton was pulled fairly soon after ITM started running the line. The interchange switches at Tipton are unfortunately on the north side of the NS line, so ITM lost that connection. I've understood that NS train crews always disliked this signal and diamond location because of the slow restriction in an area that is a pain for train control anyway. When the opportunity to pull it happened, they moved on it, but I don't think the Port Authority made any objections.

Back on the south end, the tracks going towards the old 10th Street bridge stayed in place for quite a while as they were part of the Port Authority's purchase from NS. They were left this far south as they continue to the last NW customer siding at Lewis and 13th Street (oddly enough whose private siding tracks are still in place now). Several years ago, the rails were removed from the old 21st Street wye to the end of trackage somewhere around 13th Street. When I've talked with ITM members about this, it was apparently a shock to them. ITM has always had long term plans to replace the 10th Street bridge to get back to Union Station -- and even if they didn't--- the Port Authority would run the light rail or similar to Union Station on these tracks. Never heard who removed them, but it appears that the Port Authority made this decision. Often the Port Authority is quoted as "Keeping the ROW intact, or Keeping the Corridor Intact for Future Use", so unused track removal probably would not have been seen as a problem...at least to them. I've always been a little puzzled on the relationship of ITM and the Port Authority, they seemingly don't either work with ITM much or don't understand their needs / goals...

In any case, weed spraying, signal maintenance, crossing pavement, and that sort of thing never happened past 21st Street even when these tracks were in place. The 21st Street wye lost its south leg prior to all of this and before ITM was using these tracks, really could have been a useful thing. This isn't a high end neighborhood, so it is possible that they could eventually get this land back and fix the wye, but I digress.

Very seldom did ITM run trains south of 34th Street, the Fair Train usually stopping at 38th Street. When they did run south of 34th, it was generally to go offline to the Indiana Railroad using what I think were the old the Belt RR track turning on the north curve of the 21st Street wye. It went east along Bloyd Avenue, then under I-70, then crossing the double diamonds on the old NYC main just after Keystone Avenue and then turning south on the Belt RR. This route was how new equipment would come in by rail as well and is also how coal trains from the Indiana Railroad would access the power plant north of Noblesville when it was still coal fired.

A few years ago, somewhat unexpectedly, CSX pulled the two diamonds out, this is when ITM became stranded. It appeared that the "easy" solution would have been to install a switch on the CSX mainline north track and make a connection to the line along Bloyd Avenue and I think this is what we all thought was going to happen. Not having inside knowledge on the negotiations I have no idea what happened, but the switch was not installed.

Sometime prior to April of this year, even more track has been pulled up that makes this possibility even more remote, this being the track section along Bloyd Avenue starting under the I-70 overpass, going west to at least Hillsdale, maybe even Sheldon Street, see the photos I took in April.

http://images2.snapfish.com/232323232%7 ... 8343nu0mrj

http://images2.snapfish.com/232323232%7 ... 9343nu0mrj

Hopefully, more details will come to the surface.

David Farlow
Whitewater Valley Railroad


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 Post subject: Re: ITM and NKP 587....
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:28 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:49 am
Posts: 635
Boy, that is not a good situation for them at all! It is very difficult to get a diamond back in place once it's gone, and more than likely CSX removed it because in PTC every switch and junction have to be wired into the system...and a little- used diamond with a museum on one end of it would not be a priority with them.

I can't call names but someone at the Port really dropped the ball on this one. CSX might re-install a way to get across by means of two switches, but track can be relaid and rail restored if there is the will and purpose for it to happen.


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