It is currently Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:25 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 387 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 26  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:18 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3030
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Commentary on this fight from a source that is normally a booster for modern rail service (leading editorials, both pages).

http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df3/df10072013.shtml

http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df3/df10142013.shtml

Do we have a higher purpose?

http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/blo ... -prep.html

What the trail people think of us; comments about hearings on the corridor from September 9, 2013:

The Adirondack Rail Trail [Initial Comment by the Administrator]: "Lots of blue haired rail fans not happy with the process. It was so loud you couldn't hear your self think."

Following comments, only quotation marks added and "Like" notes eliminated:

Linda Pickering: "Thanks for updating!"

Maureen Peroza: " Thanks Hope. We are working the computers from this end. Time to sound the alarm ....for real!!!"

Jay Waller: "Unfortunately that's when they set the meetings up for if you think you saw blue hairs tonight wait till the afternoons. Typical of any state hearing they're scheduled when the working man is busy or can't possibly make it in time...."

Gunner Cook: "I was there and saw one of the conplaints listed that the public presentations in say Utica were unfair being only 1-4pm. I would think at this point emails, letters and faxes are the most powerful tool."


The Adirondack Rail Trail [Administrator]: "Absolutely make sure you email or write. Those are critical. The hearings are visual and also important for the press to gauge public sentiment while the hearings are ongoing. The more people that show up to a hearing is indicative of the interest of the general public in the issue. If you are a Tri Lake Business person you should really try a make the hearing but definitely everyone should write or email."


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:59 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:02 pm
Posts: 973
Location: Back in NE Ohio
RCD wrote:
Here is a list of businesses that support tearing up the track http://www.thearta.org/Businesses%20In%20Support.pdf
make sure not to give them your patronage and to tell all your rail fan friends.


Methinks you might go hungry and without shelter in that region if you boycotted every business on the list. I would say that the trail people have managed to do an incredible PR job if nothing else to have that many businesses signed on to supporting them. That is a scary amount of Chamber of Commerce types to have against the railroad.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:19 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2447
Location: S.F. Bay Area
PaulWWoodring wrote:
RCD wrote:
Here is a list of businesses that support tearing up the track http://www.thearta.org/Businesses%20In%20Support.pdf
make sure not to give them your patronage and to tell all your rail fan friends.


Methinks you might go hungry and without shelter in that region if you boycotted every business on the list. I would say that the trail people have managed to do an incredible PR job if nothing else to have that many businesses signed on to supporting them. That is a scary amount of Chamber of Commerce types to have against the railroad.


That's what happens when you hire an Executive Director, and don't have foamers controlling the public messaging.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:52 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:21 pm
Posts: 195
Location: Danbury, CT
Ah, rail trails........sigh. They are indeed wonderful and creative ways to re-purpose long inactive or abandoned rail lines. In some cases, they are the only chance for any sort of preservation. HOWEVER, I do not feel the same about this particular rail trail.

I've visited both the rail trail groups' website and their facebook page. I don't believe that they are the tree hugging hippie type of old. This is clearly not a "give back to nature" trail. I think both the rail trail people and the railroad advocates have misconceptions of each other. I'll talk about the rr advocates later. After viewing the "about us" page on their website, I can determine that only four of their board members can be considered environmentalists and one of them is a proponent for self-powered outdoor recreation. A third of the board members are snowmobile riders/advocates and most likely ride other ATV's during the warmer months (You may start to notice a biased opinion of the sort now). Four members are business owners and four members are also there for politics (feel free to let your mind wander). All appear to be "local" taxpayers and lovers of the outdoors. Great.

I also visited the Adirondack Scenic RR's website to learn some things about them. They have a considerable amount of trackage! While they do not regularly operate over 100% of it, they require its entirety to reach the north end of their operation. Otherwise, it would be an island. They are sensitive to the outdoorsman/woman and offer several options including "Bike and Rail" and "Canoe and Rail". I can't imagine that the Adirondack RR folks wouldn't be willing to sit down and work with the rail trail people. Well, if they have, I guess it hasn't worked. Too bad. It takes two to tango.

The impression that I have gathered about the rail trail people follows.... First, I like to call these folks "trail nuts". I see them as a group of scavengers that have grown too big for their britches. They fail to understand nor do they see any value in the continued existence of the railroad. They see the railroad as a nuisance. Many view the trackage as an unnecessary obstacle, namely those who likely ride snowmobiles, ATV's, and dirt bikes as trespassers on the line and right of way as it stands. So what good is the railroad to them? It's a perfect venue for a trail because the work is mostly done and the path is already there (hence scavengers). It does indeed seem as though they began with a modest and achievable goal of sorts. The stretch between Tupper Lake and Saranac Lake is at least 20 miles, eh? One would think that there'd be a great opportunity for a symbiotic relationship there between the railroad and the trail nuts, right? It doesn't appear so. The trail nuts don't seem to be willing to compromise. Now, they seem to want all or nothing.........the entire line between Old Forge and Lake Placid. Sounds pretty lofty and a bit greedy if you ask me.

So, what about the "trail nuts" impression of the railroad advocate? Frankly, they (and many others) think we are a bunch of old stinky "blue haired" choo-choo fanatics that only come out of the basement every once in a while to either play with "real trains", photograph "real trains", or go to a show or hobby shop to get more choo-choo crap. Are they that far off? Not really. That description may be a bit extreme and it certainly doesn't apply to all of us. However, we've all seen rail fans and foamers that fit that description to a tee.

We all share varying levels of passion with regard to railroading and provide a basis of advocacy for the interest. However, the difference rests in the contributions that we make. What are we doing to help? It's been said before, rail fans and foamers don't pay the bills. They're great and all, but they don't solely sustain an operation's existence. With that said, we must be sure to show some appreciation for the operation we're there to see by making a contribution and not just taking photos, etc. That may lend some sort of credibility, especially when criticizing said operation later in online forums, not that anyone does that or anything.

As far as the topic of this thread is concerned..........I feel disappointment, sadness, and anger on behalf of the Adirondack Scenic RR. The accusation of this incident being "an inside job" is absurd. This act of sabotage was clearly premeditated and while none of the ARTA board members may have committed the crime themselves, it is realistic to conclude that someone sympathetic to their cause did. That's what I'd consider guilty by association. I could be wrong. It's happened before.

In closing, I may be way off base here, but this is just my opinion based off my limited knowledge of the situation. Take it or leave it. I'm cool with that. Thanks.

_________________
Randy Patterson
RMNE/ Naugatuck Railroad


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:52 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:21 pm
Posts: 195
Location: Danbury, CT
robertmacdowell wrote:
PaulWWoodring wrote:
RCD wrote:
Here is a list of businesses that support tearing up the track http://www.thearta.org/Businesses%20In%20Support.pdf
make sure not to give them your patronage and to tell all your rail fan friends.


Methinks you might go hungry and without shelter in that region if you boycotted every business on the list. I would say that the trail people have managed to do an incredible PR job if nothing else to have that many businesses signed on to supporting them. That is a scary amount of Chamber of Commerce types to have against the railroad.


That's what happens when you hire an Executive Director, and don't have foamers controlling the public messaging.


I'm inclined to agree with this statement.

_________________
Randy Patterson
RMNE/ Naugatuck Railroad


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:53 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:11 pm
Posts: 345
Another fact provided by the local parks board that has many miles of trails here, 1 ATV, snowmobile, dirt bike does more damage to the trail surface than 100 biker/hikers.(paved trails included) The National Parks service thinks that number is low.
So all these people come in tear up the trail, load their equipment up and go home. Who pays for the trail upkeep and maintenance? Tax payers?
Said piece of equipment, gets in a wreck leaks fluid or hopefully blows up, who takes care of that clean up? Snow mobile goes on a pond goes through the ice (I have friends with snow mobiles it happens more often then you think) Who pays for the clean up of the water pollution?
I read in the one article that this is a national park? See if they want a train,i.e. Cuyahoga Valley, grand canyon. Let the trail foamers have fun fighting with them.
If in fact it is a national park all it takes is the right elected official and you have your problem solved. The trail people will grow tired very quickly of fighting the feds.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:26 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 457
Jack A. Siffert wrote:
I read in the one article that this is a national park?


No, the railroad is not in an National Park.

The Adirondack Scenic Railway runs thru the Adirondack Park (wikipedia), a state protected area.

It is a very complicated situation, with a lot of history, but this sentence sentence from the wikipedia entry summaries it well:
Quote:
While it is frequently referred to as a state park, the Adirondack Park has much more in common with a national forest: it mixes private and public land and has year-round residents within its boundaries in long-established settlements.

_________________
--
Chris Webster
Personal Website Last Updated in 1996


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:34 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3030
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
The incident as reported in Railway Age:

http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/fre ... c+Railroad


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:39 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2438
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
The battle the Adirondack RR faces will not be won or lost by arguing with trail supporters on Facebook. Engaging in those who hurl accusations does no good, at best it gives those accusations credence.

Further, do not fall into the guilt by association trap. Just because the person or persons who committed the sabotage may be trail supporters does not mean all in the pro-trail group are so inclined.

Effective, non-foamer, messaging, professional management and results are the only things that will make a difference.

_________________
--
David M. Wilkins

"They Love Him for the Enemies He Has Made!"


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:41 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2447
Location: S.F. Bay Area
wilkinsd wrote:
The battle will not be won or lost by arguing with trail supporters on Facebook.
It will be won by laying a trail alongside the railroad that is head and shoulders better than the trail they could have put on the railroad.

For signal maintainers and MoW access, of course.

Quite seriously. If you look at most Class I mainlines, especially in the west, there is essentially always a utility road paralleling the track. In many cases the utility road has a cute little bridge right next to the railroad bridge, commonly made of an old TTX flatcar. This is precisely for that purpose. And would make a dandy trail. The precednent is broad.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:03 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:54 am
Posts: 794
Location: NJ
I think Mr. MacDowell hit the nail on the head here. A 'maintainer's' road would let the two groups co-exist. There is another, and possible more germain, precedent. The Western Maryland Scenic shares much of it's RoW with a bike trail; I recall a similar bike trail vs. railroad conflict led to that compromise several years ago. Today, WMSR carries bikes and their riders up to Frostburg, using a combine or baggage car for the bikes.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:27 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3030
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
robertmacdowell wrote:
It will be won by laying a trail alongside the railroad that is head and shoulders better than the trail they could have put on the railroad.

For signal maintainers and MoW access, of course.


Excellent!! Darn, you've got me jealous as can be--why didn't I think of that?

Having said that, there are still a couple of questions.

One, brought up by the trail people, is cost. Where will the money to pay for that come from?

Secondly, part of the alleged difficulty of having both is that part of the route, like the Catskill Mountain, is in a protected area. The railroad is grandfathered in, and potentially a trail on its roadbed would follow through (though there is some dispute on that), but what amounts to a new road through there would have a number of problems with things like an environmental review process and the like.

Still, that could work, if those trail guys would be willing to listen at all. The question is, will they listen at all, or have they hardened themselves so much you might as well talk to a bunch of rocks?


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:17 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3030
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
For information only--results of a poll by a National Public Radio outlet:

http://nynow.org/post/weeks-new-york-now-poll-question

Basic results:

50%--restore full line
41%--take rails out and make a multi-purpose trail
9%--incorporate both

If you take the 50% who want to "restore the full line" and combine them with the 9% who think we should "incorporate both," we have a nice solid 59% who want the railroad to stay. At the same time, I am bothered by the minority but still strong 41% that wants the railroad to go away. More of those should have been in the 9%, swelling it out. Why aren't they there?


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:10 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:50 pm
Posts: 363
A few random thoughts and comments:

1. There is a pretty decent ongoing discussion over on railroad.net that I checked in on over the weekend and would encourage those interested in this situation to check it out. This is and will continue to be a highly political matter.

2. The anti-rail movement here is not a voice of one and they (ATV/Snowmobilers and rail trail folks) are not all pulling together in unison and in the same direction. These two groups have different motives.

3. The "Rail with Trail" option will be fundamentally difficult to pull off because much of the ASRR corridor passes through very environmentally sensitive land. Expanding the footprint of this travel corridor is much easier said than done. This has always been a single track corridor and adding a trail will most certainly require impacting "virgin" ground outside the RR ROW.

4. The success of most if not all rail trails is their relative proximity to major urban centers. This does NOT apply to the Adirondack Scenic RR corridor. It's very remote. But I'm sure the trail folks won't let that stand in the way of their campaign.

5. IMHO, I think that in the end, NYSDOT will NOT feel compelled to change the status of this transporation corridor. The anti-rail folks may be loud and vocal in the North Country, but whether that translates into political pull in Albany is another matter. Many in that area who are familiar with the Adirondack Park laws and regulations believe that should either the trail or ATV/Snowbiler crowds succeed in getting the state to support removing the railroad, that the Adirondack Park's "Forever Wild" reversionary clause would take effect and they would have an enormous fight on their hands to get the legal right to establish any other form of transportation on the corridor without it reverting either to abutting landowners or to a truly wild state.

Rob Gardner


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:07 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2005 11:25 am
Posts: 84
J3a-614 wrote:
For unlikely possibility anyone here is unfamiliar with this railroad, it is a former New York Central line running over 100 miles between Utica and Lake Placid in New York; the latter city has twice been the site of winter Olympic games, once in the 1930s, and again in the 1980s. The line was revived for connecting service to Lake Placid for those later games, though the job was apparently done "quick and dirty."

This railroad, like the Catskill Mountain, operates in two sections over a government owned right-of-way (owned by the state of New York). There is an officially "out of service" segment in the middle, but this out-of-service segment is used to ferry equipment between the two operations, and is thus passable by trains, although not considered in good enough condition for revenue service. The road has been working gradually to reopen its entire length, and there has even been a new station built at Tupper Lake in anticipation of revived service.

However, like Catskill Mountain, it also faces trail pressures from the snowmobile crowd in the Adirondacks, some of whom spew the same arguments that the railroad's progress is too slow, that the snowmobile crowd and hikers will bring in more money (this is with something like 1,000 miles of snowmobile trail in New York), etc. In contrast to the Catskill Mountain trail people, who seem to be mostly former hippie-environmentalist types, the trail people in the Adirondacks seem to be largely their opposite number, conservative Tea Party types, at least based on the comments on the trail group's Facebook page (go figure!) They are even more adamant about wanting their trail than the Catskill group, and have claimed that a combined trail and railroad are impossible on a single track line (tell that to the people who have such trails in San Clemente, Ca., Madison, Wis., and at another trail in Tennessee).

In any event, this act of sabotage doesn't look or sound like something a bunch of drunken teenagers would do, nor is it an act of metal thievery. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.



Why not just say it already... it Ted Cruz's fault.
</sarc>


Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 387 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 26  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


 Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: