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 Post subject: 1936 CB&Q Budd passenger cars in Saudi Arabia....
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:32 am 

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:25 pm
Posts: 31
Location: Joliet
First, for those who don't know, the Saudi goverment bought 21 CB&Q Zephyr cars from a third party back in the 70's. The cars included the five unit Nebraska Zephyr set (twin to the train at IRM) along with a complete semi articulted 10 car 1936 Denver Zephyr set, and the remaining cars coming from the second Denver Zephyr set which was broken up. (the obs and a few other cars of the broken up Zephyr set are in still in the states and were listed on Ebay a couple years ago) They recieved some other non CB&Q cars, but I don't know what they were. The cars proved unsuccesful in the deserts of Saudi Arabia and were pulled from service after a short time.

There has been speculation in the past on the CB&Q Yahoo list if these cars even exist anymore. It has been quite a few years since any proof of there existance has come up, at least as far as anyone on the Yahoo group could find. There was a guy years back that was well on his way in getting these cars back in the states, but died before it happened.


This recent satalite image of a frieght yard in Ad Dammam Saudi Arabia shows what apears to me to be the 5 unit articulated Nebraska Zephyr set among a bunch of other passenger cars that could be the other 17 or so CB&Q Zephyr cars shipped there in the 70's. Close examination of the grainy image shows what appears to be at least two more Budd observation cars, and what appears to be a couple of RDC or dome cars, which wasn't a part of the CB&Q car lot sold to the Saudi's.

http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=26.42250,50. ... Cundefined

There are also a few cars off to the side that appear to be an obs and a few coachs.

http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=26.42688,50. ... Cundefined

While these grainy satalite images aren't definitive proof of anything, I found it interesting.

It's too bad if these cars really do still exist, the cost of shipping them back to the states and restoring them would probably be too expensive for most any museum to afford.

John Tyson.

(Edit: Fixed first link.)


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 Post subject: Re: 1936 CB&Q Budd passenger cars in Saudi Arabia....
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:00 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:10 pm
Posts: 949
Those RDC's spotted from above were part of the original equipment of the Saudi Arabian Government Railway when it was built soon after World War II between the port of Dammam and the capital city of Riyadh. When I was growing up in Ras Tanaura in the 1950's (which is why I missed the end of steam in the USA), on our occasional trips to Dhahran and Al Khobar, I would sometimes see the Budd cars at the station along the highway. I rode in one on a tour to the interior oasis city of Houfuf around 1957 or '58, and I recall there was a solid door in the center of the car to segregate the men from the women. In the women's section, there were also a couple of curtained-off compartments where family groups could travel with some privacy. The SAG Railway at that time also had a number of coaches, which I recall as looking like Erie Stillwells, pulled by RS-1's. On one occasion, I also saw one of the SAG FP-7's idling at the station.


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 Post subject: Re: 1936 CB&Q Budd passenger cars in Saudi Arabia....
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:22 pm 

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:29 am
Posts: 211
Who was trying to buy them? are they owned by the state railroad there?


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 Post subject: Re: 1936 CB&Q Budd passenger cars in Saudi Arabia....
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:39 am 

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:25 pm
Posts: 31
Location: Joliet
eze240 wrote:
Who was trying to buy them? are they owned by the state railroad there?


Kevin McCabe was the one who was working to get the cars back in the states. From what I understand he wasn't going to purchase them. He talked the Saudi's into donating them back to the US. I've read the Saudi's were going to donate them directly to IRM, but that may just be a rumor. I believe he was working on a way to transport them back to the states when he passed.

I assume the Saudi Goverment RR still owns them, since thats their yard the cars are sitting in.

John.


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 Post subject: Re: 1936 CB&Q Budd passenger cars in Saudi Arabia....
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:45 am 

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:25 pm
Posts: 31
Location: Joliet
From what I have gathered, Kevin McCabe was only trying to get one of the complete 12 car Dever Zephy sets back into the states, not the entire 22 or so cars that are over there.
Also, I have no affiliation with any of the original attempts at getting the cars back. Everything I have stated is second hand information I found while searching the web. I just thought it was an interesting story.

John.


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 Post subject: Re: 1936 CB&Q Budd passenger cars in Saudi Arabia....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:25 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:01 pm
Posts: 6
I had the opportunity to take photographs in the early 1970's of the Zephyr fleet that banker Alex Barkett bought and refurbished before he sold the entire collection to Saudi Arabia. I was working at Kansas City Union Station at the time and took the time to record some images when I could.

Mr. Barkett of the Civic Plaza National Bank first purchased a former 1936 Denver Zephyr, later a Texas Zephyr. Then he acquired former Nebraska Zephyr (former Twin Zephyr) "Train of the Gods." Finally he added approximately half of the other original Denver Zephyr. All of the equipment was built in 1936.

Reviewing my slides, I recorded images of many of the cars, however, the list is not in order of consists nor listed by consist. In addition, this is not a complete list of the cars in the Barkett collection that went to Saudi Arabia:

Silver Flash
Silver Grill
Silver Lake
Silver Tone
Silver Tip
Silver Sides
Silver State
Silver Lining
Silver Service
Silver Carrier

Apollo
Neptune
Mars
Vulcan
Jupiter


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 Post subject: Re: 1936 CB&Q Budd passenger cars in Saudi Arabia....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:28 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:19 am
Posts: 46
Two of the other cars that were purchased by the Saudi government were the two Norfolk & Western obs cars from the Powhatan Arrow (an example image can be seen here: http://rr-fallenflags.org/nw/nw-o581abn.jpg). The Roanoke Chapter, NRHS was working to repatriate at least one of them in the early 90's but had to give up on the attempt after the NS steam program ended.

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 Post subject: Re: 1936 CB&Q Budd passenger cars in Saudi Arabia....
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:27 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:11 pm
Posts: 270
My family made a trip to Colorado in 1973 to take in all of the narrow guage and standard guage railroading available. The Rio Grande was still running the Siverton Branch and the Rio Grand Zephyr. While in Denver we spent some time at Union Station. At the time one, of the Nebraska Zephyr sets was coulpled to SCL E-3 501 (Now at NC Transportaion - Spencer in its ACL livery). Which set was parked at Dever Union, "Train of the Goddesses" or "Train of the Gods"? (Goddesses went to IRRM - correct?)


Last edited by TimReynolds on Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 1936 CB&Q Budd passenger cars in Saudi Arabia....
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:52 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2091
Location: Northern Illinois
TimReynolds wrote:
..."Train of the Goddesses" or "Train of the Gods"? (Goddesses went to IRRM - correct?)


Correct.

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 Post subject: Re: 1936 CB&Q Budd passenger cars in Saudi Arabia....
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:50 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:34 pm
Posts: 87
The NYS&W had 16 Budd built coaches that were used in the 1950's and were sold to Saudi Arabia in 1960. Someone I know who served there during the Persian Gulf War indicated he saw the cars in service (thankfully modified with A/C - they had no A/C when they operated in "mild" New Jersey). Seeing how durable Budd cars are I would think there is a good chance these cars are still there today.


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 Post subject: Re: 1936 CB&Q Budd passenger cars in Saudi Arabia....
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:11 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:11 pm
Posts: 270
diningcartim wrote:
Seeing how durable Budd cars are I would think there is a good chance these cars are still there today.


Given the high humidity in SA ;) I'd think unless they were scrapped they'd be in fine condition.

Good background over in the editorials:

http://www.rypn.org/editorials/single.php?filename=041127025053.txt


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 Post subject: Re: 1936 CB&Q Budd passenger cars in Saudi Arabia....
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:27 pm 

Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 10:40 am
Posts: 119
CBQ483 wrote:
Two of the other cars that were purchased by the Saudi government were the two Norfolk & Western obs cars from the Powhatan Arrow (an example image can be seen here: http://rr-fallenflags.org/nw/nw-o581abn.jpg). The Roanoke Chapter, NRHS was working to repatriate at least one of them in the early 90's but had to give up on the attempt after the NS steam program ended.



Sorry to take this thread totally off topic, but if that is an H-81 coupler in the rear of that Northern Pacific Observation car, it doesn't look like it has nearly the required amount of swing.


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 Post subject: Re: 1936 CB&Q Budd passenger cars in Saudi Arabia....
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:28 pm 

Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 11:27 am
Posts: 420
Location: Switching the Coach Yard
Jeff,

Could be he was looking at a NP painted CB&Q car on a facebook page. Most P-S round ends were built with E couplers in the round end IIRC. I also seem to recall that the standard H-80/H-81 is too long for the application and you wind up using a short H like the Army kitchen cars use -- the shorter coupler requiring less swing to make the curves. Perhaps CB&Q 483 can tell us?

ETA


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 Post subject: Re: 1936 CB&Q Budd passenger cars in Saudi Arabia....
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:51 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:56 am
Posts: 341
Location: Northern California
I was told many years ago that some of the California Zephyr cars went to Saudi Arabia. The timing is about right. Does anybody know if this is correct? I was told that the cars were unsuccessful because they could not keep the dust/sand out of the cars.


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 Post subject: Re: 1936 CB&Q Budd passenger cars in Saudi Arabia....
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:53 am 

Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:41 am
Posts: 72
I too heard this also read about this in a old issue of TRAINS magazine at some point between 1975-1990, I wasn't sure if this was true. I know, one shouldn't believe everything they hear,read or see, that's where questions come in to play.

Mr. Starr


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