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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:26 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
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Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Rainier Rails wrote:
137. Also according to the same list, PRR #7125 Queen Mary (Lot #4862, Plan #3957I, 1925, 1DR-plr [26 seats], WAB)--sold to WAB (1945) to PRR #7125 (1949) to PC to restaurant in Wayne, NJ was scrapped in late 2013--can anyone confirm this??


Why, yes:

www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35827


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:13 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:22 pm
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Rainer Rails ( and others )

In regards to the car mentioned as the NYSW Chenango, I believe this car is the "Herald Square" and is owned by a gentleman who I believe lives on the car in Ringoes NJ on the BR&W. This car perhaps might hold the record for the longest restoration to Amtrak service, as I know this project continues on now for likely over 20 plus years...( a true testament to his desire to run ...)

The car has had an open platform added to one end and the interior has been significantly altered from its 6C-3DR configuration... ( car was not built with open platform shown )

Last I heard the owner was having a set of OSH trucks rebuilt...

Here are a few photographs that I took of the car perhaps a year or two ago...

Thought you might find this of interest


Dean Levin


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:14 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:22 pm
Posts: 429
a few more photographs


Dean Levin


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:09 am 
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Posts: 1951
Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Thanks, ADM IV, for the info on Queen Mary!

Thanks, Dean, for the info on Herald Square!

262. Herald Square (Lot #6290, Plan #3523C, 1929, 6C-3DR, PRR)--sold to PRR #8556 (1948) to pvt. owner as NYO&W Chenango (Ringoes, NJ)

Sources:

1. Information from Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database at: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

2. Information from D. Garrett Spear's PRR passenger car roster pages at: http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/GSPEAR/

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:50 am 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
Posts: 366
Location: Morganton, N.C.
I hate saying it but I do not believe that the NYO&W Chenango car shown in the images posted by Dean is the same car that previously had been lettered NYO&W Chenango... the car in Dean's shots is a business car that I do not believe was rebuilt from a 6 Comparment - 3 Drawing Room car shown in the images linked to below, there are just too many consistence:

http://rr-fallenflags.org/nyow/nyow-cheo-akg.jpg
http://rr-fallenflags.org/nyow/nyow-cheo-bkg.jpg

It would take a considerable amount of work to rebuilt a sleeper car into a riveted side business or private car and even with a long target date... the work involved would take a good size shop force to accomplish it, not just a couple of people. And considering that the side sheets on the private car look original I doubt that the owner took the car completely apart and then proceeded to reapply new side sheeting to match the business car configuration.

While I have no idea what the history of the business car is (have gone through what links I have on a non-rebuilt, non-modernized, business cars and have not come up with a possible history, I suspect that there is yet an answer out there as to what the car use to be. As for the Old & Weary lettering and Chenango name on both cars both were likely applied by the owner for sentimental reasons and it may be that the owner of the business car formerly owned the 6-3 sleeper, which could help to explain the use of the names on both.

I still have more pages to check, along with a few other references. Hopefully the real history to the private car can be found. Better still, hopefully both the private car's history and the history for the 6-3 car can be found so that both can be properly accounted for. (Chenango was the name of one of the counties that the O&W ran through.)

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:27 am 

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:06 pm
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Location: Thomaston & White Plains
It's the same car. The owner has done some serious alteration to it, keeping to Pullman practices- remember that Pullman would do major reconfiguration to cars that totally changed them. I was inside this car in 1970, and he'd already been working on it for a couple of years. 40-plus years of restoration, not 20!

Howard P.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:45 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:42 am
Posts: 1951
Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
More Survivors:

263. Barneston (Lot #3804, Plan #2416, 1910, 1DR-plr [26 seats], PRR)--sold to N&W and converted to PN Class coach #753 (1941) converted to BP1 Class baggage-coach #620 (1947) converted to MS1 Class mail storage #1459 (1952) to Springfield Model RR Assoc. (1969) to Monticello RY Mus to IRM--see here: http://www.irm.org/cgi-bin/rsearch.cgi?coaches=Norfolk+&+Western=1459

*Jerry LaBoda's website lists this as being the Narcissus (Lot #4761, Plan #3416T, 1924/43, 1DR-plr [28 seats])--Tourist #6042 sold to N&W and converted to coach #785 to mail storage #1459. The N&W Historical Society roster does not list #785, nor does it list any car converted from Narcissus--could this car have been scrapped without being converted?? Hmm...

264. Ocean City (Lot #4250, Plan #2417F, 1914, 1DR-café-plr [16 seats], PRR)--sold to NP and converted to coach #633 (1941) to White Sulphur Springs & Yellowstone Park RY--see here: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35784, here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3089049 (Bob Keenan photo), and here: http://jovos.smugmug.com/Trains/Historic-Railroading-Outside/i-KPWvfHg/0/O/Old%20cars.jpg

265. & 266. I did not previously realize that NP #633 was a converted car, which implies that NP #627 and #634, both now on the Lake Whatcom Railway, are also converted cars. Does anyone know the histories of these two cars?? (My knowledge of NP heavyweights is limited)

NP #634 on the Lake Whatcom RY in 1990: http://research.nprha.org/JMFNPPhoto04500/JMF05-04034.0.jpg (NPRHA photo)

Sources:

1. Pictures located via Jerry LaBoda's photo links website at: http://passcarphotos.info/

2. Information from Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database at: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

3. Information from N&W Historical Society's steel passenger car roster at: http://www.nwhs.org/data/passenger/index.html

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:26 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:42 am
Posts: 1951
Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Another Survivor:

267. Arringdale (Lot #4106, Plan #2410, 1913/43, 12S-1DR)--Tourist #2568 retained (12/31/1948)--sold to SLSF (1953) to Oklahoma RY Mus--see here: http://www.oklahomarailwaymuseum.org/wp-content/gallery/pullman-tourist-sleeper-no-2568-display-car/display-car.jpg (Oklahoma Railway Museum photo)

Sources:

1. Picture located via Jerry LaBoda's photo links website at: http://passcarphotos.info/

2. Information from Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database at: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:47 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
Posts: 366
Location: Morganton, N.C.
Quote:
*Jerry LaBoda's website lists this as being the Narcissus (Lot #4761, Plan #3416T, 1924/43, 1DR-plr [28 seats])--Tourist #6042 sold to N&W and converted to coach #785 to mail storage #1459. The N&W Historical Society roster does not list #785, nor does it list any car converted from Narcissus--could this car have been scrapped without being converted?? Hmm...


The problem with the N&WHS roster is that it can not be taken as being complete nor fully correct, with some cars, such as heavyweight and lightweight sleepers, being missing completely from the listings and other errors being present. I first mentioned this in regards to the parlor cars that the N&W acquired to the N&W Mailing List back in November 2011.

Among the errors are the spelling of some Pullman parlor car names while other Pullman cars that were acquired as a part of the Pullman divestiture are not even named, even though it is known that cars were not only acquired but used in revenue service...

#750 - Clairidge (name mispelled, should be Claridge)
#752 - Elanette (Plan 2418 28 parlor seat - Drawing Room)
#761 - Anthracite had its name changed to Tobyhanna 1913
#765 - Hager (name mispelled, should be Hagar)
#768 - Alvarette (name mispelled, should be Alvaretta)
#772 - Roseclear (name mispelled, should be Rosecleer)

Also, the carbody of 1459 does not fit the construction used on a Plan 2416 parlor. The rivet pattern above and below the window section confirms that the car previously had two single windows in the aisle areas on both sides (adjacent to the right vestibule on both sides), while a Plan 2416 parlor would have had double hung windows along the aisles, as shown in the shot of N&W 755.

N&W was an early user of welded construction when it came to the rebuilding of heavyweight cars, with things such as belt rails, door framing and splice plates being welded when repairs or modifications were made, especially so when it came to head-end equipment. Numerous examples exist on a number of cars where rivets are clearly gone but these various pieces of metal are still in place, being welded to the side sheets.

While the rosters are useful some errors do exist and based on what I am seeing in photos of the car that is now at the Illinois Railway Museum I stand by the history I have listed. If better shots of the rivet pattern adjacent the the right vestibule on both sides can be found (I am no where near IRM, though I wish I was) and the pattern shows double windows then I will be glad to correct the listing but for now I will let it stand.

Quote:
265. & 266. I did not previously realize that NP #633 was a converted car, which implies that NP #627 and #634, both now on the Lake Whatcom Railway, are also converted cars. Does anyone know the histories of these two cars?? (My knowledge of NP heavyweights is limited)


NP 627 was rebuilt from Pullman Plan 2418 28 chair - Drawing Room parlor car Dunlap while NP 634 was rebuilt from Pullman Plan 2416 26 chair - Drawing Room parlor car Clearview, this according to the book The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:29 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:44 pm
Posts: 119
268. Bray (Lot#4647 Plan 2410, April 1923) Converted May, 1941 to Tourist Sleeper #1926, Sold Sept 1949 to SP&S and converted to Baggage car #66. Purchased by Lake Superior Railroad Museum (1977)

In Duluth, August 1984: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=1258382

In Duluth, July 2007: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... ?id=814014

Also,regarding
Quote:
252. Hollidaysburg (Lot #3862, Plan #2418, 1910, plr, PRR)--sold to CN and converted to coach GTW #5327 (1941) to Lake Superior RR Mus


GTW 5327 is no longer owned by the Lake Superior Railroad Museum, but remains on the property, owned by a museum member and under conversion to a parlor/bar car. Date of conversion to a coach is listed as 1954 in Museum records.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:26 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:42 am
Posts: 1951
Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Thanks, Jerry, for the clarification on N&W #1459, and for the info on NP #627 & #634!

Thanks, Fireman, for the info on Bray, and for the clarification on Hollidaysburg!

Jerry--

Does this photo show the relevant rivet pattern?


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:51 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
Posts: 366
Location: Morganton, N.C.
"Does this photo show the relevant rivet pattern?"

Yes, it confirms what I had noticed in other shots... the single window would have been above the second and third row of rivets. If this was a Plan 2416 car it would not have the three rows of rivets in this placement.

Also evident is what I mentioned about N&W welding metal parts to the side sheets, except for a single row of rivets on the striker plate below the door there are none where the door is... a car originally built with a baggage door would have rivets outlining the door's opening.

Thanks Rainier Rails!

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:04 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:42 am
Posts: 1951
Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Thanks, Jerry, for the info on N&W #1459!

Additional Survivors:

269. Portageville (Lot #4762, Plan #3410, 1924, 12S-1DR, PRR)--sold to PRR #8908 (1948) to MofW bunk #492027 (1962) to TLE&W and stored in Grand Rapids, OH--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3152041 (Rev. Jeremy Heilman photo), and here: http://lists.railfan.net/totalcsx-photo/totalcsx-09-24-13/PRR_Maintenance_Car_Grand_Rapids_Ohio.jpg (Tom Boylan photo)

270. Eagle Spring (Lot #4885, Plan #3951L, 1925, bag-buf-lng)--sold to Northern Alberta RYS (1941) converted to baggage #1602 to Rocky Mountain Rail Society (Calgary)--see here: http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00CXHl

Mystery Cars:

271. PC #27042--according to Jerry LaBoda's website, this is a Plan #3989 8S-buf-sol-lng-obs--does anybody know the history of this car??--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3156056 (William Wilson photo)

272. CRI&P #96329--according to Jerry LaBoda's website, this is a Plan #2410 12S-1DR--does anybody know the history of this car??--currently located in Enterprise, KS, sans trucks (on cribbing)--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3056358 (John Matrow photo), and here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3056359 (John Matrow photo)

273. SCL #765310--according to Jerry LaBoda's website, this is a Plan #3585 8S-1DR-2C--SCL to CSX to Gold Coast RR Mus--does anybody know the history of this car??--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3489848 (Bill Fricker photo), and here: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2757/4327929736_4056a491ed_o.jpg (Earl C. Leatherberry photo) (click once to enlarge)

274. SCL #765348--according to Jerry LaBoda's website, this is a 10S-1DR-2C--SCL to CSX to Gold Coast RR Mus--does anybody know the history of this car??--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1581457 (Eric Kreszl photo), and here: http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4013/4327939546_827a3e60f8_o.jpg (Earl C. Leatherberry photo) (click once to enlarge)

A "Where Is It Now?" Car:

Lake Laura (Lot #4817, Plan #3585A, 1924, 10S-1DR-2C)--sold to PRR #8664 (1948) to MofW bunk #493821 (1965) to PC to CR--see here: http://railpixs.com/conrail/exPRRcoach_MassillonOh_Oct87.jpg

Sources:

1. Pictures located via Jerry LaBoda's photo links website at: http://passcarphotos.info/

2. Information from Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database at: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:55 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
Posts: 366
Location: Morganton, N.C.
Quote:
272. CRI&P #96329--according to Jerry LaBoda's website, this is a Plan #2410 12S-1DR--does anybody know the history of this car??


According to the Pullman Heavyweight Roster book this is ex-PULL TC 2096, exx-Bonsal, nee-Bonsall

Quote:
273. SCL #765310--according to Jerry LaBoda's website, this is a Plan #3585 8S-1DR-2C...


Oops... my bad... it should be a 10 Sectiion - 1 Drawing Room - 2 Comp car.

Quote:
274. SCL #765348--according to Jerry LaBoda's website, this is a 10S-1DR-2C...


As for these cars' histories they are either SAL 1251 Lake Alexander or 1250 Lake Borgne, the other two cars acquired from Pullman are listed as scrapped.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:19 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:42 am
Posts: 1951
Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Thanks, Jerry, for the info on Bonsall, Lake Alexander, and Lake Borgne!

Question regarding Plan #3585 cars that went to ACL and SAL at the 12/31/1948 divestiture:

SAL acquired Lake Alexander, Lake Borgne, and Lake Chicot. ACL acquired Lake Cone (renamed Puerto Rico in 1938), Lake Elmo, Lake Louise, Lake Pelican, and Lake Winnebago.

Which two cars are shown in the records as being scrapped, and what were the dispositions of the other four?

Thanks in advance.

Source:

1. Information from Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database at: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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