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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:28 pm 
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Thanks, ETA, for the info on Kentucky Club!

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:39 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
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Location: Morganton, N.C.
Quote:
305. Cuba (Lot #4979, Plan #3967A, 1926, buf-lng, Florida Pool)--sold to GM&O diner-lng #400 (1st) Azalea (1945), renumbered to #2008 to make room for the #400 (2nd) and sold in 1970 to Al Coleman. Coleman sold the car to the Riverside Restaurant in Butzville, NJ, which closed back in 2006, and as reported in the thread linked to below, the Azalea is still there!


There's only one problem with the history of GM&O 2008... it is a completely different car from GM&O 400 despite both having the same name. How do I know? Because I have Alton Passenger Car Diagrams of 1932 that specifically shows that the 2008 was on the roster way before Cuba was acquired by the GM&O... about 13 years before... and it was originally numbered 663.

I am trying to track down the story of GM&O 400 out of the hope of knowing what this car was rebuilt into or renumbered... will add more as soon as I find something out.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:08 pm 

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Location: Morganton, N.C.
GM&O 400 Azalea became GM&O Instruction car 105 while sister car 401 Camellia became Instruction car 106. The 105 likely was later renumbered to 66657 (need confirmation on this), while 106 became 66658. This info from the Gulf Mobile & Ohio Historical Society @ Yahoo! Groups.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:40 pm 
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Thanks, Jerry, for the info!

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:17 am 

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Location: Morganton, N.C.
When I first found a shot of 66658 I was really surprised that they used the maroon and red paint with gold trim on the car instead of the dark blue-green used on business cars... I have always liked the maroon and red and looking at the car as an Instruction car it made me with that the same colors were wore by them.

A little explanation about the shot of GM&O 400 in GM&N silver and red paint, and the ACFX folder the shot is in at George Elwood's ACF folder. While most of the cars that are in the ACF folders (freight and passenger cars) were builder's photos the Azalea is clearly a Pullman product, what with its pediment ends. The key is knowing about the relationship between ACF and GM&O in St. Louis.. a relationship that had a number of cars being sent to the ACF for modernizing (plating over some windows while applying sealed windows to the windows that were to be retained). This can be seen in many of the GM&O heavyweight coaches as well as some other heavyweight cars such as mail cars and the line's business cars. The Azalea shot was ACF's way of documenting the work that was done on that car, despite its Pullman heritage.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:08 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:22 pm
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Thought a few members might like to see recent photographs of the Monte Rosa and the heavyweight I believe ( from a souce ) is the Gray....

Photographs were taken a few months ago.

Monte Rosa is the platform car.


Dean Levin


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:10 pm 

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I believe this is the Gray....( from a source )


Dean Levin


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:21 pm 
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Thanks, Dean, for posting the photos of Monte Rosa and Gray!

Is the Washington Square still on the property?

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:39 pm 
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Another Survivor:

310. Raton (Lot #4208, Plan #2522F, 1913, 7C-2DR, AT&SF California Limited)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Royal American Shows (1956) to Fillmore & Western

Sources:

1. Santa Fe Railway Historical & Modeling Society page on AT&SF Pullman heavyweight sleepers: http://www.atsfrr.com/resources/Page/HWTPsgr.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:33 pm 
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Another Survivor:

311. Rio Usumacinta (Lot #4201, Plan #2585E, 1913, 10S-1DR-2C, AT&SF California Limited, ex-Matagorda)--sold to MP (1948) leased to NdeM* (1953) to museum in Wichita Falls, TX

*Although the Pullman Project CCR database does not list a resale to NdeM in 1953, in the paint column it does list the Rio Usumacinta being repainted from "MP Eagle colors" to "NdeM exterior" on 10/23/1953, and no further paint changes are listed; the car was withdrawn from Pullman lease in 1962.

Sources:

1. Santa Fe Railway Historical & Modeling Society page on AT&SF Pullman heavyweight sleepers: http://www.atsfrr.com/resources/Page/HWTPsgr.htm

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:21 pm 
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Three More Survivors:

312. Davy Crockett (Lot #4490, Plan #2502C, 1917, private car, ex-Pioneer)--sold to WP #106 (1942) named Charles O. Sweetland (1950) sold to Marty Lummis (when?) to Western Pacific RR Museum

313. Philadelphia (Lot #4211, Plan #2502A, 1914, private car)--sold to WP #105 (1942) sold to Dick Reynolds-Great Western Tours (when?) and later used on Napa Valley Wine Train--current location in CA unknown

314. Glen Eyre (Lot #4922, Plan #3523A, 1925, 6C-3DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Hyman-Michaels (1964) acquired by WP and converted to business car #103 to CSRM (at Railtown 1897 in Jamestown)

Sources:

1. Trainorders thread on WP #106 from 11/8/2013: http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,3232053

2. Trainorders thread on WP #1 and other business cars from 1/1/2012: http://mail2.trainorders.net/discussion/read.php?11,2649768

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:15 pm 
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On 9/3/2012, Ed Ellis posted a picture of Iowa Pacific's 6C-3DR SLRG #9172 Glen Summit (line item #91) in the Alamosa car shop on Trainorders: http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/attachments/fullsize/680000/Glen_Summit.jpg*

*(One must be a Trainorders member to view the photo)

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 6:13 am 
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As this thread has continued to identify surviving cars, I have noticed that there were several cars that had been acquired by two different private owners: Jack Ferris and Ruben Darby. Many of these cars had remained in Pullman ownership and pool service after the 12/31/1948 divestiture. However, at this time, a few of the cars acquired by either owner have yet to surface as being extant. Does anyone know the whereabouts of these cars?

Below are listed all the cars I have noted as acquired by either owner.

Jack Ferris-Private Railroad Cars Incorparated owned:

Known Survivors:

3. Clover Colony (Lot #4574, Plan #4036I, 1920/40, 8S-5DB, ex-Bernadotte)--sold to SP #8351 (1948) sold to Jack Ferris (1964) to High Iron Company (1968) to private owner #800044 (1972) to GCRM (1986) to TVRM (1993)

18. Dover Plains (Lot #4698, Plan #4015C, 1923/34, 6DB-buf-lng, ex-Toms River)--sold to MC #10750 (1948) returned to Pullman (1958) sold to Jack Ferris (1965) to Escanaba & Lake Superior (when?)

27. Glen Alta (Lot #4922, Plan #3523M, 1925, 6C-3DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Jack Ferris (1965) to IRM (when?) to Iowa Pacific as SLRG #9171 (201?)

29. Glen Fee (Lot #4970, Plan #3523A, 1926, 6C-3DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Jack Ferris (1965) to OP&E (when?) to Galveston RR Museum (when?)

44. McKinneysburg (Lot #4845, Plan #3410, 1925, 12S-1DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Jack Ferris (1965) to private owner in Colorado (when?)

47. Mt. Darwin (Lot #4816, Plan #3521, 1924, 10S-buf-lng-obs)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Jack Ferris (1965) to Bear Creek Scenic (when?) to Railroad Town USA (when?) to Galveston RR Museum (when?)

71. Woodland (Lot #6360, Plan #3410B, 1930, 12S-1DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Jack Ferris (1965) to OP&E (when?) to Galveston RR Museum (when?) to Iowa Pacific (SLRG) (201?)

Scrapped Car:

315. Travel Club (Lot #4484, Plan #4025S, 1917/33, 8S-buf-sol-lng-obs, ex-Manyaska, C&NW)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Jack Ferris (1963) to Back Forty Junction restaurant, Decatur, IN (when?) scrapped 4/2012*

*Note that even though it is no longer extant, I have assigned the Travel Club a line item number.

Trainorders thread on the scrapping of the Travel Club: http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,2776191

What's interesting is that the poster of the Trainorders thread mentions that the Travel Club had been stored in Fort Wayne, IN, with a number of other cars:

NKP779 wrote:
The car was stored at Fort Wayne's CASAD government depot along with over 100 Pullman cars in the late 50's, part of a Defense Department war reserve fleet. When the fleet was disposed of in the early 1960's, Jack Farris [sic] of Fort Wayne formed the Private RAilroad Cars, Inc. [sic] and acquired the Travel Club


Does anybody have a full or partial listing of the cars that were stored in Fort Wayne?

Unknown Status:

316. Capitol Heights (Lot #4923, Plan #3521A, 1925, 10S-buf-lng-obs, ex-Monte Vista)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Midwest Steel (1961) to Jack Ferris (when?)--does anyone know the current whereabouts or status of this car?

Question:

Did Jack Ferris own any other cars in addition to the nine I have listed?

Ruben Darby-Darby Wood Products owned:

Known Survivors:

57. Schubert (Lot #4833, Plan #3523K, 1924, 6C-3DR, AT&SF)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby (1967) to NCTM (when?)

131. Glen Blair (Lot #6124, Plan #3523C, 1928, 6C-3DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby (1967) stored at Brunswick, MD (when?) to LASTA (when?)

142. Glen Saddell (Lot #4974, Plan #3523A, 1926, 6C-3DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby (1967) to Adirondack RY Company (when?) to Adirondack Scenic as #MW9 to Remsen Development (when?) sale to Iowa Pacific (SLRG) pending

152. Lake Terrell (Lot #4770, Plan #3585L, 1924, 10S-1DR-2C)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby (1967) to Lake Shore RHS (when?) to Iowa Pacific as SLRG #9173 (201?)

154. Poplar Summit (Lot #4845, Plan #4084A, 1925/39, 6S-6DB, ex-McClung, ACL)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby (1967) to Lake Shore RHS (when?) to Iowa Pacific as SLRG #9166 (201?)

192. Donizetti (Lot #4833, Plan #3523K, 1924, 6C-3DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby (1967) to Mad River & Nickel Plate (when?) to Iowa Pacific as SLRG #9167 (201?)

296. Glen Pond (Lot #6182, Plan #3523L, 1928, 6C-3DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby (1967) to LASTA (when?)

Unknown Status:

317. St. Paul (Lot #4724, Plan #3410, 1923, 12S-1DR, ex-St. Helier)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby (1967)

318. Moore (Lot #4833, Plan #3523A, 1924, 6C-3DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby (1967)

319. Fir Park (Lot #4836, Plan #4179, 1924/50, 6S-4RM-4DB, ex-Point Barrow, PRR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby (1967)

320. Poplar Trail (Lot #4844, Plan #4084A, 1925/39, 6S-6DB, ex-McCarley, L&N)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby (1967)

321. Glen Farm (Lot #6290, Plan #3523C, 1929, 6C-3DR, SAL)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby (1967)

Does anyone know the current whereabouts or status of these five cars?

Question:

Did Ruben Darby own any other cars in addition to the twelve I have listed?

Source:

1. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:29 am 

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Quote:
142. Glen Saddell (Lot #4974, Plan #3523A, 1926, 6C-3DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby (1967) to Adirondack RY Company (when?) to Adirondack Scenic as #MW9 to Remsen Development (when?) sale to Iowa Pacific (SLRG) pending


Rainier

The Glen Saddell came to the Adirondack Railway in 1979. I do not know where it was before that. It was in relatively good condition with fresh exterior paint (yellow) and only really needing re-upholstery and cleaning. I believe the need for it was diminished with the arrival of the LW ex C&O/B&O 10-6 sleeper "Shenandoah" (and the real lack of need for sleeper service given the railroads schedule), so it just sat. At some point it lost its north end coupler. It was sold with all the other ADK equipment at the liquidation auction in 1981 to a private individual (name escapes me) who never arranged to remove it from the property. It then sat in Thendara until 1992 when the Adirondack Centennial Railroad started up operation. It was then shuffled around the yard for a few years. Upon the owners death, his estate donated it to the Adirondack Scenic (I believe this was around 96 or 97). Around this time it was moved to Big Moose for storage to clear up the Thendara yard for track work and expansion. It was given to Remsen and moved there in 2006 I believe (it's brakes even functioned even though the last COTS was 1970!). Too much info I know but what the heck.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:36 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:45 pm
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Rainier Rails wrote:
27. Glen Alta (Lot #4922, Plan #3523M, 1925, 6C-3DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Jack Ferris (1965) to IRM (when?) to Iowa Pacific as SLRG #9171 (201?)


If I'm reading IRM's master equipment roster correctly, Glen Alta arrived at IRM in 1992.

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