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 Post subject: SS&S #26 36"ga 2-6-2 for auction
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:50 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:10 am
Posts: 2332
One of the prettier gals at the Jersey Shore over the last 40+ years is available

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22174/lot/226/

Rob


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 Post subject: Re: SS&S #26 36"ga 2-6-2 for auction
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:05 am 

Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:00 am
Posts: 524
Location: Dallas ,Texas. USA
Whats the final auction date?

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 Post subject: Re: SS&S #26 36"ga 2-6-2 for auction
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:17 am 

Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:41 pm
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Location: Minneapolis, MN
Even if the loco were to be used on an insular RR, like Disney, it seems to me that it would be prudent to perform the 1472 day inspection before attempting to operate. That means adding at least $500,000 to the cost because the inspection nearly ALWAYS results in some kind of significant boiler repairs. In the case of the 26, it has NEVER been thoroughly inspected since the Part 230 regulations took force, so the likelihood of significant boiler work is quite high. Unless the shop forces of the buyer are pretty experienced, this is a very daunting job.

So, what is a complete narrow gauge steam locomotive WITHOUT its FRA 1472 day ticket worth?


Last edited by hamster on Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: SS&S #26 36"ga 2-6-2 for auction
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:26 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
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Location: southeastern USA
Half a million to do an inspection? You might be talking to the wrong contractors.....

Yes, caveat emptor......in the absence of the ability to actually do a teardown and perform due diligence, it may be prudent to determining what she'd be worth if she needed a lot of heavy boiler and running gear work. Then, your only surprises are likely to be pleasant ones.

dave

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 Post subject: Re: SS&S #26 36"ga 2-6-2 for auction
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:21 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:31 am
Posts: 1102
Location: South Carolina
Interesting to see Southern valve gear on a little narrow gauge engine. I wonder if it was built that way or if it was a later modification?

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 Post subject: Re: SS&S #26 36"ga 2-6-2 for auction
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:38 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:15 pm
Posts: 160
Location: Lawrenceville, NJ
Loco112 wrote:
Whats the final auction date?


It's listed as Saturday May 10th.

The 26 is a neat little locomotive that has made many an "orbit" around Pine Creek's 3/4-mile loop since the mid 1970's. Her last full season of operation was in 2001, though she did operate on New Years Day 2002. This was her last day of operation and she has been stored inside ever since. The 26 has some firebox "issues" which will need to be addressed before operating again. The scope of repairs required seemed to vary somewhat depending on who you were talking to at the railroad. I BELIEVE most (all?) of the issue(s) centers around some wastage area(s) on the crownsheet (if this info is inaccurate I apologize and hopefully someone with more knowledge will speak up). The 26 came under NJ's state boiler inspections when she operated. I'm sure a visit with a UT meter would be in order. Unless things changed recently, 26 has her boiler jacketing in place.

I'm pretty sure that the fact that 26 was privately owned (and that this day following Dr. Cox's death would eventually come) was the primary reason for side-lining the locomotive vs. the scope of work needed to return the locomotive to operation. Instead the NJMT has invested time and money into the (ongoing) restoration of a locomotive they own outright, a small Porter-built 2-6-0.

I'm not sure if NJMT plans to bid on 26, but I wish them success if they plan to do so.

If 26 winds up leaving Pine Creek, hopefully it will be to a good home and some place where the locomotive can and will be returned to operation.

The 26 is a relatively small locomotive that most likely would be unsuitable, size wise, for most of the larger 3-foot gauge operations including perhaps some of the larger "park" operations as well. She did well on Pine Creek's little loop. 26 had been the perfect size locomotive for them (the "new" Porter 2-6-0 #46 will be the perfect size as well). Size-wise, in terms of #26, think of ex-Hawaii Ry. 2-4-2 #5 (now running in CT) with an extra set of drivers and a longer boiler.

I'm pretty sure 26 would be restorable at a reasonable cost given what it costs to fix up choo choos these days. I BELIEVE the locomotive is complete or mostly complete less any bits and pieces that NJMT owns. The last time I saw her, I think only thing I saw "missing" (on the "outside") was the turbogenerator.

One "really cool" feature about 26 is that she sports Southern Railway Valve Gear. Someone with more intimate knowledge of 26 would have to chime in on the condition of the running gear. I don't BELIEVE it is terribly bad condition given the fact that the locomotive had been making just left hand turns for more than 25 years.

Again, I truly hope that 26 stays right were she is, but if not, the above info hopefully will aid anyone else interested.

Regards,
Jim Robinson


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 Post subject: Re: SS&S #26 36"ga 2-6-2 for auction
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:59 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:18 am
Posts: 469
Location: Wall, NJ
I debated whether to weigh in here or not.. I worked on, fired, and later was engineer on the 26 for the better part of 30 years. I left NJMT in 2004 so have no feel for what has been done since that time, but can give you a feel for the condition prior to that. Depending on the operation a new owner has in mind, $500K may be on the low side. For a GTL RR type of operation, certainly more than that would be required. For a guy’s backyard operation, just boiler work would be required. For Pine Creek, the running gear is fine when you figure she got about 15 miles per day put on her, but for any other operation where she will work a bit harder and longer, new pony and trailing truck wheels will be needed and I would assume tender truck wheels as well. The valve gear is sloppy and she pounds on the fireman’s side. The tender tank only holds water in the rear half so would probably need to be replaced if longer runs were planned. Driver tires had been replaced, but since she operated on a circle of track, one would need to take a close look at the forward engineers side driver flange. As to the boiler, at a minimum I would expect a new firebox is needed and while you are at it a new front flue sheet as well. The barrel has never been mapped. She was taken out of service when the new boiler laws hit NJ in 2001. She last ran New Years Day 2002. At a minimum, I would expect $100K would need to be spent to have her running again on some limited operation just to cover modern boiler requirements. $500K or way over that ($1M+) for an operation with a more demanding operational requirement.


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 Post subject: Re: SS&S #26 36"ga 2-6-2 for auction
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:49 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3032
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Turns out that this engine has at least one surviving sister. No. 6, a 2-6-0, is at the Midwest Central. She came there from the Argent Lumber Company in Louisiana:

http://www.mcrr.org/IMAGES/6-Baldwin/20 ... 306-01.JPG

http://www.mcrr.org/IMAGES/6-Baldwin/20 ... 306-12.JPG

http://www.mcrr.org/PAGES/six_02.html

Fascinating that two locomotives survive from a railroad abandoned in the early 1930s. And note that No. 6 also has Southern valve gear--but you can bet she wasn't built with it!

A look at the cylinder block suggests No. 26 did come with Southern from the factory, though. . .not too unusual, EBT's big Mikes, Nos. 16-18, have Southern valve gear, too.


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 Post subject: Re: SS&S #26 36"ga 2-6-2 for auction
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:17 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8354
Location: Baltimore, MD
This page gives you more on #6:
http://www.mcrr.org/PAGES/six.html

The Rushton ("cabbage") stack is a remnant of the Argent Lumber Co. days.


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 Post subject: Re: SS&S #26 36"ga 2-6-2 for auction
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:43 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:15 pm
Posts: 160
Location: Lawrenceville, NJ
J3a-614 wrote:
Turns out that this engine has at least one surviving sister. No. 6, a 2-6-0, is at the Midwest Central. She came there from the Argent Lumber Company in Louisiana:

http://www.mcrr.org/IMAGES/6-Baldwin/20 ... 306-01.JPG

http://www.mcrr.org/IMAGES/6-Baldwin/20 ... 306-12.JPG

http://www.mcrr.org/PAGES/six_02.html

Fascinating that two locomotives survive from a railroad abandoned in the early 1930s. And note that No. 6 also has Southern valve gear--but you can bet she wasn't built with it!

A look at the cylinder block suggests No. 26 did come with Southern from the factory, though. . .not too unusual, EBT's big Mikes, Nos. 16-18, have Southern valve gear, too.


Minor correction: The Argent Lumber Co. (SS&S 2-6-0 6's second home) was in SC.

I'm 99.9% sure 26 came from Baldwin with the SOU valve gear.

Although 26 was built in 1920, her original boiler was replaced soon thereafter in 1925 due to pitted boiler steel. A "factory defect" covered by Baldwin. IIRC she carries an "extra order" builders plate that reflects that fact.

After the SS&S closed down, the 26 was sold in July 1930 to the Gray Lumber Co. of Waverly, VA. and was used there. I believe Dr. Cox purchased the 26 directly from the lumber company and originally stored the locomotive at the US Overseas Airport in Cape May County, NJ. I believe it came to Allaire for restoration in the early 1970's. The color photo on the auction house's website is from a postcard view that was made not long after 26 went into service, which I believe was around 74 or 75. In the early days she was lettered "Pine Creek Railroad" as seen in the photo. Later 26 was returned to her S.S.&S. Ry. paint scheme which she still wears today. 12 years of under-cover storage has the paint and lettering still looking pretty good. If someone were to buy her for a static display only with no plans for operation, I would say the 26 is pretty much "ready for display" as is. A roof over head would be nice.

It'll be interesting to see just how much she fetches at auction. I was reading 1 online news story about the Cox estate auction that mentioned that [they] think the steam locomotive "may bring up to $35,000"

BTW, Pine Creek has a number of log cars (frames, trucks) that I think also came from the Gray Lumber Co. as well (JR May probably would know?). Some have been repurposed under PCK rolling stock.

Hey, just thinking out loud as I type this... speaking of SS&S 2-6-0 6, IF we New Jersey guys HAVE to "lose" 26, the Midwest Central RR in IA would a great place for her to go and be reunited with her long-lost stable mate! Of course I'm "spending" someone else's money!

Regards,
Jim Robinson


Last edited by Jim Robinson on Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: SS&S #26 36"ga 2-6-2 for auction
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:20 pm 

Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 12:20 pm
Posts: 120
J3a-614 wrote:
Turns out that this engine has at least one surviving sister. No. 6, a 2-6-0, is at the Midwest Central. She came there from the Argent Lumber Company in Louisiana:


Fascinating that two locomotives survive from a railroad abandoned in the early 1930s. And note that No. 6 also has Southern valve gear--but you can bet she wasn't built with it!

A look at the cylinder block suggests No. 26 did come with Southern from the factory, though. . .not too unusual, EBT's big Mikes, Nos. 16-18, have Southern valve gear, too.


Actually No.6 WAS originally built with Southern valve gear, as was the 26. The Surrey, Sussex and Southampton was an early proponent of Southern Gear and only their early locomotives ( 2-4-0, 4-4-0 and 0-4-2 tank engines) came with Stephenson's link motion.

If you can find a copy there is an excellent book by H.T. Crittenden called "The Comp'ny" that chronicles the history of the SS&S and the lumber company that owned the railroad.
Also the Argent Lumber Co. was in Hardeeville, South Carolina, not Louisiana.


Keith


Last edited by LVRR2095 on Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: SS&S #26 36"ga 2-6-2 for auction
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:48 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:31 am
Posts: 1102
Location: South Carolina
LVRR2095 wrote:
J3a-614 wrote:
Also the Argent Lumber Co. was in Hardeville, South Carolina, not Louisiana.


Argent Lumber #7, a 2-8-0, is displayed in Hardeeville:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: SS&S #26 36"ga 2-6-2 for auction
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:27 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:45 pm
Posts: 15
Anyone know how far along Pine Creek is with #46? Hope they can keep 26 and have a fleet of working steam again someday. Stopped by there a couple years ago and the guys there let me walk through the shops. 26 still looked great on the outside anyway. Looked like they were doing some work on #4 also. Looking at those engines brought back alot of good memories, spent alot of time there as a kid.


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 Post subject: Re: SS&S #26 36"ga 2-6-2 for auction
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:36 pm 

Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 603
Location: Bucks County, PA
steamchaser wrote:
Anyone know how far along Pine Creek is with #46? Hope they can keep 26 and have a fleet of working steam again someday. Stopped by there a couple years ago and the guys there let me walk through the shops. 26 still looked great on the outside anyway. Looked like they were doing some work on #4 also. Looking at those engines brought back alot of good memories, spent alot of time there as a kid.


I spoke with the group on Facebook, and whoever answered me indicated that they hoped to have 46 running at some point next year - by some miracle, maybe even by the end of this year. But maybe a trip there is in order (by me or someone else on here) to find out in person!

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 Post subject: Re: SS&S #26 36"ga 2-6-2 for auction
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:33 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:10 am
Posts: 2332
bigjim4life wrote:
steamchaser wrote:
Anyone know how far along Pine Creek is with #46? Hope they can keep 26 and have a fleet of working steam again someday. Stopped by there a couple years ago and the guys there let me walk through the shops. 26 still looked great on the outside anyway. Looked like they were doing some work on #4 also. Looking at those engines brought back alot of good memories, spent alot of time there as a kid.


I spoke with the group on Facebook, and whoever answered me indicated that they hoped to have 46 running at some point next year - by some miracle, maybe even by the end of this year. But maybe a trip there is in order (by me or someone else on here) to find out in person!




A trip to the Creek is always in order, steam or no steam.

Why?

If you are interested in the history of railroad museums and preservation in the US, the Pine Creek holds a very special place on your mantle. As one of the first true roadside railroad attractions, the Pine Creek has been a microcosm of what has gone on in the larger preservation space over the the last 7 decades.

Years without steam, years with steam. Check.
Reliance on equipment owned by others. Check.
A back forty of rust. Check.
Fighting for riders against other attractions (like world class amusement parks and beaches 20 mins away). Check.


Yet, the Pine Creek guys keep on working to beat these challenges. The Porter is a long-term project to take ownership of the steam program and rely less on privately owned stock. There are still a few rusty pieces about, but they traded/sold off much of it and built cover for all the significant pieces. And yes, they compete with Six Flags and the Jersey Shore daily.

Yet, there they are, doing what they do year after year.

You'll never see them get the attention of FWRHS or the riders of the D&SNG, but they have found a way to survive, persevere, interpret and preserve.

When you look at other museums started in the same era and compare how many are left, you get an appreciation for what has been accomplished in the sandy soil under the pines of central New Jersey.


Rob


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