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 Post subject: Re: Cuba
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:48 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:53 pm
Posts: 347
Location: Casa Grande, Arizona USA
Here is the contemporary report from three "Norte Amercano's" one of whom was Jim Gunning (who took the pictures) who were there just a few days later in March 2000. Indeed all one had to do then (and now) to get to Cuba was get to Cancun, Mexico and pay cash for a plane ticket on Mexicana or Cubana Airlines to Havana. If you're into flying museum's choose Cubana with it's IL's and Yak's...an amazing experience.

"The aftermath of this boiler explosion was truly sobering to view. The amount of potential power in a steam boiler, and the result if it is not handled correctly, was on grisly display.

The locomotive is upright, but off the track. The tender is not here, it was pulled back to the scrap tracks near the mill. The entire boiler is pushed back about a meter on the frame and is tipped about 20 degrees to the right. All the frame attachments and fittings are sheared off and the rear of the frame is bent down and distorted. Parts of the valve gear and piping are badly bent from the force of the explosion.

A section of the boiler shell from the rear of the smokebox to the front of the steam dome is missing. It broke into pieces during the explosion, and we find several of them scattered around the area. It appears the reinforced area around the steam dome may have stopped the rupture of the boiler toward the rear. Examining the boiler shell near the steam dome reveals what look like sheared edges and a clean looking break. No evidence of wasting or corrosion was apparent here. It is difficult to tell where the initial failure occurred, but one likely place seems to be at the joint with the front tube sheet. The other may be at the bottom of the boiler, where years of untreated water and the resulting corrosion may have thinned the shell.

The front tube sheet is in one piece, although badly bent and distorted. It came to rest still attached to a piece of the boiler shell. A few rivets in a section of approximately 1/6th of the boiler circumference held the two together. The other 5/6ths of the rivets had pulled out around the circumference of the tube sheet. Some stayed in the boiler shell and some left with the tube sheet. A few "safe-ends" are visible in the tube sheet, revealing where tubes had been repaired using this method.
The tubes are still in the remains of the boiler. They are hanging out, bent in all directions. Some are wrapped around the shell and pointing toward the rear of the loco. All had pulled cleanly out of the front tube sheet. The smokebox shell is still in place, due no doubt to the strength of the cylinder saddle attachment, and two large frame braces on the exterior. The force of the explosion has shattered the smokebox door. Two small pieces remain attached to the hinges. The rest is missing. The stack was also sheared off and broken approximately in half. There was no sign of the headlight, turbo generator, or the front sand dome. All that remained of the rear sand dome was a section of the base.

When we inspected the loco, all the cab fittings and many pipes were gone. Most likely, already salvaged by the shop crew. The cab was sitting collapsed off to one side. We feel the cab was removed during the start of the salvage and scrapping of the loco, and not due to the explosion. Also, it was apparent the front tube sheet was torched loose from the piece of boiler shell it exited the loco with. Other than that, #1382 was just as it had come to rest. It was interesting to view, but I hope I never see another like it.". Now look at the pictures. By April, the remains of the boiler had been removed leaving just chassis, smokebox and firebox.

TH


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 Post subject: Re: Cuba
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:54 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:14 pm
Posts: 8
Tavor wrote:
Of course, the thing that disheartens me was seeing a red painted mogul on display and then a year later being cut up in the middle of a park.³

³ -http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=287490&nseq=76
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 77&nseq=77


Claiming that you saw MINAZ 1403 being cut up can't be true, the engine was cosmetically restored, repainted in black and put on display at the Havana Docks, it has been there since at least 02/2011, for a pic see http://www.internationalsteam.co.uk/trains/cuba1101.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Cuba
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:57 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:14 pm
Posts: 8
Les Beckman wrote:
All of the Cuban steamers were interesting, but the ones that I really wonder about (besides the ex-Southern 2-6-0 mentioned above) are the two big engines; 2-8-2 Mikado's. Numbered 1850 and 1910, they were built by Baldwin in 1935 (the 1850) and by Alco-Brooks in 1925 and originally ran on Cuban mainlines. Interesting that one of the sugar mills actually took these rusting hulks and restored them to service. Might they still survive today? Lots of steel in those two big engines!

Les


Both 1850 & 1910 are on display at Central Marcelo Salado, a museum mill in Caibarien (Villa Clara).


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 Post subject: Re: Cuba
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:03 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:14 pm
Posts: 8
rock island lines wrote:
I wonder if American dollars and volunteer work can now help establish a good Cuban rail museum and interpretive railroad. That would be an interesting development.


The Cubans didn't wait for American dollars to do that, there's a Cuban Railroad Museum at Havana's Cristina station, and a large number of MINAZ steam engines are preserved at the four sugar mill museums at José Smith Comas (Cardenas, Matanzas), Australia (Jaguey Grande, Matanzas), Marcelo Salado (Caibarien, Villa Clara) and Patria o Muerte (Moron, Ciego de Avila).

Moreover, in the past few years a restoration program was put in place by the Historian of the City of Havana, which restored a number of engines for display at various sites, including the Cristina museum, a square in Havana and the Havana Docks. They've now run out of either funds or engines to restore, so the program has recently been officially ended.


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 Post subject: Re: Cuba
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:30 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 4993
tkautzor wrote:


Claiming that you saw MINAZ 1403 being cut up can't be true, the engine was cosmetically restored, repainted in black and put on display at the Havana Docks, it has been there since at least 02/2011, for a pic see http://www.internationalsteam.co.uk/trains/cuba1101.htm


The other two engines in the photos, again from Mr. Adolf Hungry Wolf's booklet:

Number 1501, a 2-6-0, built by Rogers in 1894, s/n 5000

Number 1204, a 2-4-2T, built by Rogers in 1894, s/n 5009

Some additional info:

The 1501 was originally built as a 2-6-4T Forney!

The 1204 was built for the United Railways of Havana as their "Providentia".


Les


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 Post subject: Re: Cuba
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:17 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8353
Location: Baltimore, MD
Now we're getting down to the nitty-gritty.

All the locos mentioned above have been suggested, in years past, as repatriation targets due to size and condition. It's fairly apparent by now that the Cubans are keeping the "biggest and best" of what's left for their own desires and historic preservation--as is their right.

The more I hear of this, the more I think there's simply going to be nothing left to bring "back" to the states.


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 Post subject: Re: Cuba
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:43 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5250
Location: southeastern USA
I'd rather be able to go there and experience them in their natural habitat......and with the British expertise in creating entire contexts for operating museums already having worked in Cuba before the sugar industry died, I think all it would need is a sponsor with an eye for increasing tourism. Whether or not this will happen in the reasonably near future is not yet evident. I regret having not been able to take advantage of the operating sugar trains when they were running.....

It isn't like we don't have a large volume of unfinished projects and rusting hulks of our own already available, or a remnant of sugar railroading that recently died in Hawaii. Who are we to assume we can do better?

dave

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"Techies never minded eating bits and jots of their work. They were grit and grease inside and out and could turn a pile of junk into a magical kingdom."

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 Post subject: Re: Cuba
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 2:32 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 4993
Les Beckman wrote:
Bartman-TN wrote:
Hungry Wolf has been a leading researcher on Cuba railroads and has several books and videos out on the subject.


All of the Cuban steamers were interesting, but the ones that I really wonder about (besides the ex-Southern 2-6-0 mentioned above) are the two big engines; 2-8-2 Mikado's. Numbered 1850 and 1910, they were built by Baldwin in 1935 (the 1850) and by Alco-Brooks in 1925 and originally ran on Cuban mainlines. Interesting that one of the sugar mills actually took these rusting hulks and restored them to service. Might they still survive today? Lots of steel in those two big engines!

Les


One other locomotive that I wonder of its survival is 2-6-0 #1455, which was the NEWEST steam locomotive operating in Cuba. This nifty looking little Mogul was constructed in 1942 by Vulcan as an 0-6-0T! She was serial number 4395 and was built for the Nicaro Nickel Company as their number 2. Looking at photographs, it's hard to see her origins as a saddletanker. Probably no reason for her to avoid the scrapper, but just wondering.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: Cuba
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:30 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:14 pm
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I have 1455 last reported in use at CAI 627 José N. Figueredo, not reported in 1999/2000, so probably scrapped.


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 Post subject: Re: Cuba
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:59 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:46 pm
Posts: 1903
Location: Pac NW, via North Florida
John Risley wrote:
I wonder how many were scrapped since the big expo on them a few years ago? Scrap got real high, Cuba is incredibly poor and the Chinese were buying.

There was a Baldwin 3-footer 4-6-0 that could have been a clone for the ET&WNC (Tweetsie) ten-wheelers, and that got scrapped not that long ago once some train fans became aware of it and startted seeking it out for photos...

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 Post subject: Re: Cuba
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:42 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:14 pm
Posts: 8
There were in fact three 4-6-0s at Central Frank Pais (ex Central Tanamo) in Cayo Mambi (Holguin Province):
1458 BLW 53858/1920 ex Atlantic Fruit Co. 4
1459 BLW 53859/1920 ex Atlantic Fruit Co. 5
1460 BLW 53886/1920 ex Atlantic Fruit Co. 6

At its height the mill had 120 miles of 3-ft gauge track. It started dieselizing in the 1970s with a fleet of GEs (44, 47 and 50-tonners, mostly ex Chaparra RR). The area is very remote and only few foreign visitors went there and were generally not welcomed, also most of the lines run through marshes, so the operation never got well documented.

In the mid-90s three steamers were still kept in the shed, including 1458 & 1459. When Adolf Hungrywolf obtained a permit and visited in 1997 he explained the historical value of the two engines to the shop foreman, who was surprised. However, after the military boss of the mill learned that at least two foreigners had come to his mill just to see the two rusting steam locos, he immediately ordered the pair cut up.

The mill closed in 2002. The 3rd steam engine, 2-8-0 1256 (BLW 57207/1923, ex Ctl. Tanamo 10) was reported on display in 12/2008, as was GE 44-ton 2407 (30467/1950) which was on display outside town in 2005. A 5-mile line to some shrimp farms at Guajaco Uno is still operated for passengers, operations had been suspended for some time after their last railcar broke down, but in 09/2014 they got a brand new railcar No. 056.


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 Post subject: Re: Cuba
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:16 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8353
Location: Baltimore, MD
In searching for other stuff, I found this article I assembled--possibly for RyPN--in 2000 listing potential preservation candidates AT THAT TIME.

It is now fourteen-plus years later.

Quote:
First, it must be remembered that the vast majority of steam in Cuba is American-built, built for American sugar companies before the 1959 Revolution. Locomotives survive in 27 ½” gauge, 30” gauge, 36” gauge, and standard gauge; the vast majority of the survivors are standard and 36” gauge. The vast majority are also American-built, coming from Baldwin Locomotive Works, the various American Locomotive Co. plants and their corporate predecessors, Vulcan, and Porter. Amazingly, such rare builders as Danforth, PRR Juniata, Rhode Island, Glover, and Illinois Central’s Weldon Shops have or have had examples in Cuba until recently.

The following locomotives, in generally small-to-large order, illustrate what awaits eventual repatriation to American rail preservation:

Fernando de Dios (Holguin) 1, ex-Chicago South Side Rapid Transit 42, 0-4-4T, BLW 13048, 1892, preserved at mill March 1995 as “2 de Abril”.

Juan Avila (Matanzas) 76, ex-New York, Ontario & Western 2-6-0, BLW “EO412”, 1923 (could be New York Locomotive 565 of 1890), derelict and on its side at mill March 1995

Cuban MINAZ (Sugar Ministry) # 1413, ex- Evansville & Terre Haute (Indiana) #50 2-6-0, Cooke 2114, 1891, later Louisville, Evansville & St. Louis (SR) 2100, then Augusta Southern 21 (becoming Georgia & Florida RR)—At Jesus Rabi (Matanzas), dismantled for repair March 1997

MINAZ 1433, ex-Richmond, Fredericksburg & Potomac 15—a missing loco, believed to be 2-6-0 or 4-6-0, Richmond 2369, 1893, last at Carlos Balino (Villa Clara)

MINAZ 1567, ex-Pittsburgh & Lake Erie 82, 4-6-0, Pittsburgh Loco & Car Works 1592, 1896, out of use at Carlos Manuel de Cespedes (Camaguey) Feb. 1997

MINAZ 1722, ex- Buffalo, Rochester & Pittsburgh 53, 2-8-0, BLW 12317, 1891, built as a Vauclain compound, last reported derelict at Julio Reyes Cairo (Matanzas) March 1997, re#d 185

MINAZ 1905, ex-Grafton & Upton 6, later Pittsburgh, Lisbon & Western, 2-8-0 BLW 34746, 1910, a “missing loco” last seen at Ecuador (Ciego de Avila) derelict in March 1990 but not confirmed as scrapped

The above list only identifies locomotives specifically identified as former American railroad-company locomotives. A handful of other survivors are former American industrial locomotives.
In addition, among the locomotives known to have been scrapped in past years are a Philadelphia & Reading camelback 4-6-0, a Central of Georgia 4-6-0 (both at the same sugar mill), a PRR H3 2-8-0, Huntington & Broad Top Mountain 4-4-0 #25, and Colorado Midland 4-6-0 #43.

In addition, dozens of other American locomotives built specifically for Cuban operations survive in operation. These locomotives were built to a variety of plans, from outside-frame narrow-gauge 2-8-0s to handsomely-proportioned mixed-traffic 4-6-0s, from fireless 0-6-0s to large 2-8-0s. Most locos in operation are between 75 and 100 years old. The newest steamer on the island is MINAZ 1850, a 2-8-2 built by Baldwin in 1935, one of two 2-8-2s in operation of five that made it to the island (one other is preserved, and one was last reported on its side and derelict).


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 Post subject: Re: Cuba
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:40 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 6:34 pm
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Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
MINAZ 1433, ex-Richmond, Fredericksburg & Potomac 15—a missing loco, believed to be 2-6-0 or 4-6-0, Richmond 2369, 1893, last at Carlos Balino (Villa Clara)


For what its worth, ALCO Richmond #2369 was indeed RF&P 2-6-0 15 (the 3rd RF&P locomotive with this number) built in 1893. The locomotive was sold in 1915 along with three other 2-6-0s to the Georgia & Florida Railroad, becoming their number 44. Seeing at least one other former G&F 2-6-0 (MINAZ 1413) make it to Cuba makes you wonder if the other three RF&P did as well...


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 Post subject: Re: Cuba
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:35 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:14 pm
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I've quickly run your list against various lists of recent (and not so recent) sightings and came up with this, which is not very encouraging - it looks like only the 0-4-4T and 1413 have survived:

Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
In searching for other stuff, I found this article I assembled--possibly for RyPN--in 2000 listing potential preservation candidates AT THAT TIME.

It is now fourteen-plus years later.

The following locomotives, in generally small-to-large order, illustrate what awaits eventual repatriation to American rail preservation:

Fernando de Dios (Holguin) 1, ex-Chicago South Side Rapid Transit 42, 0-4-4T, BLW 13048, 1892, preserved at mill March 1995 as “2 de Abril”.

on display near CAI 639 "Fernando de Dios" in Tacajo, still there as of 02/2014,
see http://shipsnmoreships.smugmug.com/keyword/cuba/i-9zSnn24/A
and http://www.baibrama.cult.cu/municipios/baguano/PAGINAS/monumt.htm (bottom)


Juan Avila (Matanzas) 76, ex-New York, Ontario & Western 2-6-0, BLW “EO412”, 1923 (could be New York Locomotive 565 of 1890), derelict and on its side at mill March 1995

no further report

Cuban MINAZ (Sugar Ministry) # 1413, ex- Evansville & Terre Haute (Indiana) #50 2-6-0, Cooke 2114, 1891, later Louisville, Evansville & St. Louis (SR) 2100, then Augusta Southern 21 (becoming Georgia & Florida RR)—At Jesus Rabi (Matanzas), dismantled for repair March 1997

Was reported stored at CAI 312 Fructuoso Rodriguez in 2003, 2004 at CAI 314 Jesus Rabi (said to be destined for a museum in Canada), by 04/2007 it had moved to the Havana Capitolio restoration site, where it was still awaiting restoration in 11/2012 (with two tenders numbered "1413"). By Nov. 2013 it was still there, but "nicely painted", still there "pending display" 07/2014

MINAZ 1433, ex-Richmond, Fredericksburg & Potomac 15—a missing loco, believed to be 2-6-0 or 4-6-0, Richmond 2369, 1893, last at Carlos Balino (Villa Clara)

the Indstrial Locomotive Society handbook published in 1997 shows this at CAI 446 Carlos Baliño based on a MINAZ document, but it was never reported there by any visitors

MINAZ 1567, ex-Pittsburgh & Lake Erie 82, 4-6-0, Pittsburgh Loco & Car Works 1592, 1896, out of use at Carlos Manuel de Cespedes (Camaguey) Feb. 1997

nothing more

MINAZ 1722, ex- Buffalo, Rochester & Pittsburgh 53, 2-8-0, BLW 12317, 1891, built as a Vauclain compound, last reported derelict at Julio Reyes Cairo (Matanzas) March 1997, re#d 185

not reported by visitors 1998-2000

MINAZ 1905, ex-Grafton & Upton 6, later Pittsburgh, Lisbon & Western, 2-8-0 BLW 34746, 1910, a “missing loco” last seen at Ecuador (Ciego de Avila) derelict in March 1990 but not confirmed as scrapped

not found by 3/91 visitor, presumed scrapped


Rgds, Thomas.


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