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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:03 am 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
A Mystery:

While searching for something else, I came across the list of roadside diners on Hicks Car Works: http://hickscarworks.blogspot.com/2008/06/roadside-diners.html

In the "Found on the Web (Actual railroad cars only)" section, there is a 2-location diner listed in Spokane, WA: Frank's Diner.

For the older location (c. 1991) close to Downtown, the car in use is listed as NP parlor observation #1787 (B&S, 1906).

For the newer location (late 90's/early 2000's) in North Spokane (actually in Fairwood near Country Homes), the car in use is listed as GN #670, which was built in 1913 in Lot #4216 as Plan #2412B 16S sleeper Laketon (for PRR), converted in 1940 to Plan #2412U tourist sleeper #4285, and sold in 1947 to GN, which converted it to dormitory #670, 1 of 6 cars (#670-#675) rebuilt from Tourist 16S sleepers.

This history, albeit with several big errors, was written up on the diner's website. This page, however, has been removed from the current version, so I located a cached version on the Internet Archive: http://web.archive.org/web/20080315151619/http://www.franksdiners.com/franksNShistory.htm

Now, normally that would suffice for giving this car a line item number, but photographic evidence would seem to point in the direction that this car was misidentified, and it is not the GN #670 (nee-Laketon):

I found this photo of the car in question, taken by Jim Nieland on July 21st, 2014: http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/111145109.jpg, info page located here: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/111145109

To me, this doesn't appear to be a twice-rebuilt 16S sleeper, including the Gothic windows, number of windows and window placement, and stemming from that, the lengths between the vertical rivets in the lower side sheet.

If this car was misidentified as the Laketon, then I wonder what the history is?

The diner's website might offer a few clues, but some follow up research would be in order to ascertain the car's actual identity.

First off, it states that the car was found in the 1990's on a siding in the Ballard neighborhood of Seattle (this would be the Ballard Terminal RR, a remnant of the original GN mainline alignment across the Lake Washington Ship Canal and later a connection to NP's branchline around Lake Washington to Bothell, Redmond, Issaquah, North Bend, and Snoqualmie). Okay, that's a good place to start...unfortunately I don't have any photos from when this car was parked here in Seattle (oh well).

Second, it states that NP #1787 was formerly part of a diner here in Seattle from 1931 to 1991, located on 4th Avenue South. While that doesn't help directly, it gave me an idea: what if the car found in Ballard was also formerly part of a railroad diner over here on the west side of the state? Well, within Seattle, there would've been a few candidates. Obviously not from the same diner as NP #1787, nor from either of the Andy's locations, so maybe it was part of the diner located along Terry Ave., between the Denny Regrade and South Lake Union, called "The Terry Avenue Freight House".

The block where the diner was located has been redeveloped as part of the S. Lake Union "urban center", with new office buildings and the S. Lake Union Streetcar making this whole area look very different from what it was just 10, 15, or 20 years ago. Terry Avenue was once lined with warehouses and the like, with the NP serving these different businesses, from a confectionary to the old Frederick & Nelson Department Store's furniture warehouse. This railroad history was covered by Alan Winston on the old Seattle Spur and Spot website, and Jim Lancaster has reconstructed this page on his website: http://coastdaylight.com/seattle/terry_avenue_1.html

Again, I don't have any photos of this diner, so I can't definitively say that the car in question was formerly part of the Terry Ave. diner. Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong direction.

Can anyone on here provide more info? Thanks in advance!

Anyways, on to the next Pullman lead...

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

3. Jerry LaBoda's photo links database: http://passcarphotos.info/

4. Jim Lancaster's railroad pages: http://coastdaylight.com/trains.html

5. Hicks Car Works roadside diners list: http://hickscarworks.blogspot.com/2008/06/roadside-diners.html

6. GN passenger car diagram folio (August 1952)

7. Frank's Diner website history pages:

___7a. Downtown location: http://web.archive.org/web/20080315151611/http://www.franksdiners.com/franksDThistory.htm

___7b. North Spokane (Fairwood) location: http://web.archive.org/web/20080315151619/http://www.franksdiners.com/franksNShistory.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:09 pm 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Thanks to information posted by new forum member "nowell1", I've started looking through the online addition of the Canadian Trackside Guide, and have already found at least one surviving Pullman I had not previously listed:

382. Steubenville (2nd) (Lot #4494, Plan #2411C, 1917, 12S-1C-1DR, PRR)--sold to Northern Alberta Railways (NAR) and renamed Fairview (1942) to NAR MofW shower-recreation #18103 (11/1962) to Alberta RY Museum (1981) to On-Track Railway Service #18103 (1998) to Katie's Crossing restaurant (Ardrossan, ALB) (2001)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayne Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

3. Bytown Railway Society's Canadian Trackside Guide, section for Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba (PDF document): http://www.bytownrailwaysociety.ca/docs/Preserved%20AB-SK-MB.pdf

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Last edited by Rainier Rails on Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:47 pm 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Another Survivor:

Listed in the Canadian Trackside Guide:

383. Nugent (Lot #4485, Plan #2410F, 1917, 12S-1DR)--sold to Northern Alberta RYS (NAR) and renamed Westlock (1942) redesignated/reconfigured to coach (listed as still named Westlock) (1961) sold to Old Strathcona Foundation (12/1976) sold to Alberta Pioneer RY Association-Alberta RY Museum (Edmonton) (also 12/1976?)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

3. Bytown Railway Society's Canadian Trackside Guide, section for Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba (PDF document): http://www.bytownrailwaysociety.ca/docs/Preserved%20AB-SK-MB.pdf

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Ted Brumberg


Last edited by Rainier Rails on Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:14 am 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Another Survivor:

Listed in the Canadian Trackside Guide:

384. Old Ironsides (Lot #6022, Plan #3951C, 1926, bag-buf-club-smoker-bbr) sold to CN and rebuilt to Class 74-C-3 coach #5278 (number of seats??) (1941) transferred to MofW as #63052 (2nd) (11/1961) sold to Alberta Prairie RY Excursions (4/1991) sold to CN depot, Rowley, ALB (when??)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

3. Bytown Railway Society's Canadian Trackside Guide, section for Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba (PDF document): http://www.bytownrailwaysociety.ca/docs/Preserved%20AB-SK-MB.pdf

4. CN passenger car diagram folio of March 1968

5. Richard Montgomery's CN Pullman roster

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

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Ted Brumberg


Last edited by Rainier Rails on Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:20 am 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Thanks to information provided by another forum member, here's another survivor:

385. Lago Azul (Lot #4292, Plan #4025J/U, 1914/34/39/47, 8S-buf-lng-sol-obs, NdeM, ex-Plan #4025A Bridlespur Club [NKP], nee-Plan #2521A Las Plumas [Scenic Limited])--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Georgia RR (1956) later sold to Dante Stevens and renamed Survivor 1 (when??) then resold to unknown party (when??) and located in Atlanta.

I haven't been able to locate any photos of this car. Anyone know of any?

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:09 am 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Another Survivor:

Listed in the Canadian Trackside Guide:

386. Mt. Moran (Lot #4816, Plan #3521, 1924, 10S-lng-obs)--sold to Norfolk Southern RY (1948) and rebuilt to business car Mary Lee (1949) renamed Carolina (1953) sold to Pacific Great Eastern (PGE) as #A6* Northern Summit (1956) to successor British Columbia RY (BCOL) as #A6* (1972) renamed Peace River (1975) then changed back to Northern Summit and renamed again to Captain James Cook for use with CP Royal Hudson #2860 (1978) later renumbered to BCOL #50 (when??) sold to Okanagan Northern Excursion RY (2002) resold to West Coast RY Association (Squamish, BC), still named Northern Summit (12/2005).

*The Trackside Guide does not list #A6 for the car, either as PGE or BCOL, but photos of the car during the PGE era clearly show this number, however, this number appears to have been removed under BCOL, and the #50 is also not visible in any photos of the car as BCOL. Perhaps a case where the car was only registered/listed as #A6 and later #50 in company records/internal documents.

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

3. Bytown Railway Society's Canadian Trackside Guide, section for British Columbia, Northwest Territories, and Yukon Territory (PDF document): http://www.bytownrailwaysociety.ca/docs/Preserved%20BC-NWT-YT.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:55 am 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Another Survivor:

Listed in the Canadian Trackside Guide:

387. Blasdell (Lot #3936, Plan #2410T, 1911/43, 12S-1DR/13S, NYC)--Tourist #2551--listed by Madden as sold to Iron & Steel Products (1947)--sold to Pacific Great Eastern (PGE) as #6508 Williams Lake (1947) transferred to MofW and modified to diner, still as #6508 (1969) to successor British Columbia RY (BCOL) #6508 (1972) sold to Central British Columbia RY & Forest Industry Museum (1995) resold to the Skeena Valley Model RR Association (Terrace, BC), still as #6508 (11/1996).

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

3. Bytown Railway Society's Canadian Trackside Guide, section for British Columbia, Northwest Territories, and Yukon Territory (PDF document): http://www.bytownrailwaysociety.ca/docs/Preserved%20BC-NWT-YT.pdf

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:11 am 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Another Survivor:

Listed in the Canadian Trackside Guide:

388. Aldham (Lot #3860, Plan #2410, 1910, 12S-1DR, PRR)--sold to CN as colonist sleeper #2713 (12/1942) rebuilt to rules instruction car #15025 (12/1956) sold to Sandra Tea & Coffee Limited (Ajax, ONT) (4/1983).

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

3. Bytown Railway Society's Canadian Trackside Guide, section for Ontario (PDF document): http://www.bytownrailwaysociety.ca/docs/Preserved%20ONT.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:59 pm 
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Posts: 1684
Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
More Survivors:

Listed in the Canadian Trackside Guide:

389. Admiral Dewey (Lot #6220, Plan #3410B, 1929, 12S-1DR, PRR)--sold to PRR #8710 (1948) withheld from lease and transferred to MofW as #492541 (1960) later sold to restaurant in Springville, NY (when??) resold to the Puddicombe Estate Farm & Winery (Winona, ONT) (11/2002).

390. Dixiana (Lot #4222, Plan #2522A, 1913, 7C-2DR, Florida pool)--sold to CN and rebuilt to Class PB-73-M-2 commuter coach #5372 (78 seats, 110 standees) (1942) sold to Kapuskasing & District Historical Society-Ron Morel Memorial Museum (Kapuskasing, ONT) (9/1970).

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. Bytown Railway Society's Canadian Trackside Guide, section for Ontario (PDF document): http://www.bytownrailwaysociety.ca/docs/Preserved%20ONT.pdf

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:58 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:07 am
Posts: 32
Rainier Rails wrote:
Another Survivor:

Listed in the Canadian Trackside Guide:

388. Aldham (Lot #3860, Plan #2410, 1910, 12S-1DR, PRR)--sold to CN as colonist sleeper #2713 (12/1942) rebuilt to rules instruction car #15025 (12/1956) sold to Sandra Tea & Coffee Limited (Ajax, ONT) (4/1983).

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

3. Bytown Railway Society's Canadian Trackside Guide, section for Ontario (PDF document): http://www.bytownrailwaysociety.ca/docs/Preserved%20ONT.pdf

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.


When the car was rebuilt to RULES INSTRUCTION, sealed window sashes were installed, as well as an observation platform. 1983 (April) the car was sold to Dave Walmsley (broker) and "CANADIAN NORTHERN" was on the letter board. During Walmsley's owner ship the car was stored near the GO Station in Oakville ON, along with ex FEC "St. LUCIE SOUND". Later the car was moved to a siding in Napanee ON (east of Toronto). In 1990 the car was sold privately and given the name "CANADIAN PULLMAN CLASSIC", though I never saw the name applied. It resides at the Sandra Tea & Coffee plant in Ajax ON, along with ex CNR "PACIFIC".

CNR Passenger Cars Vol 1 & 2 (Lepkey/West) and my own personal files

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:08 am 
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Thanks, Richard, for the info!

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:31 am 
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A Mystery Car:

I'm not giving this car a line item number just yet. As has been discussed throughout the length of this thread, the SOU rebuilt many sleepers into business cars, coaches, and baggage cars. There are quite a few of these rebuilt cars left, especially the baggage cars, so looking at some of the details of this car, I'm wondering if it is indeed one of these rebuilt baggage cars. It is currently owned by the PCS Phosphate Company as AHCX #2006 and configured as a field training car.

Picture taken by Kermit Geary, Jr., at Sioux City, IA, on May 8th, 2004: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=244600

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:07 am 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
Posts: 366
Location: Morganton, N.C.
This is not a Southern car.

Note the roof hatch to the right, above the "P" emblem on the right end of the car... the roof hatch, the large door to the left of the slogan and the roofwalk are all indicators that this is a former Department of the Air Force flight simulator car support cars. Here is a link to a surviving car...

https://d38ls2kcjnhfdj.cloudfront.net/1b3d6fed-a0db-448e-8247-2812d8c07901.JPG

Also the car has Pullman pediment ends... these were typically replaced by Southern on cars that they converted to head-end cars (baggage - express and mail storage) and the same was true of cars rebuilt into modernized passenger cars, coaches, coach - dinette, business cars and the like.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:29 am 
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Rainier Rails wrote:
SOU rebuilt many sleepers into business cars, coaches, and baggage cars. There are quite a few of these rebuilt cars left, especially the baggage cars, so looking at some of the details of this car, I'm wondering if it is indeed one of these rebuilt baggage cars. It is currently owned by the PCS Phosphate Company as AHCX #2006 and configured as a field training car.
jmlaboda wrote:
This is a former Department of the Air Force flight simulator car support cars. Here is a link to a surviving car...

https://d38ls2kcjnhfdj.cloudfront.net/1b3d6fed-a0db-448e-8247-2812d8c07901.JPG


Thanks, Jerry, for the info!

Earlier in this thread we had discussed another one of these ex-USAF cars (one of the simulators) which had been rebuilt from a Pullman and was later owned by the Entertrainment Line as ENTX #102 (line item #277). The car couldn't be identified, as the ENTX number didn't line up with the original USAF number. That being said, as far as I know, all of the simulator and simulator support cars were rebuilt from Pullmans, so the car now owned by PCS would fall within the parameters of this thread, so...

391. USAF simulator support car as AHCX #2006--full history unknown

In addition, the photo linked to by Jerry is of the ex-USAF simulator support car now owned by the Utah State Railroad Museum in Ogden. This car came up in another thread, which was started back in April 2003: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5644

It was mentioned that there were several cars at Hill AFB in Ogden, then Boyd Owens mentioned that USRM had one (last post on first page). When the thread came back up in May of last year, I found the following info on the USRM car on their website:

Utah State Railroad Museum wrote:
U.S.A.F. TARGET/BAGGAGE CAR

Originally a Baltimore and Ohio baggage car. It was converted for use as a scoring crew support car for the Strategic Air Command (SAC). The scoring crew evaluated the performance of the B-52 bombing crew as they “bombed” the target car. It was once filled with electronic monitoring equipment.


The info was found on this page: http://theunionstation.org/museums-2/utah-state-railroad-museum/rolling-stock/

Now, that being said, was the Ogden car actually rebuilt from a B&O baggage car, or was it rebuilt from a Pullman built for/assigned to the B&O? If the USRM website is correct, than does that mean the car now owned by PCS Phosphate was also a baggage car, not a Pullman? I'm inclined to think that both of these cars were not built as baggage cars, as pictures clearly show a blanked out/removed vestibule.

Can anyone provide more info on/confirm the origins of these cars? Thanks in advance!

Moving on...

Updates and Corrections:

I have an update for one car, and a correction/removal from list for another car.

First, the update:

Back on pages #3 and #18:

On Monday, January 6th, 2014, Rainier Rails wrote:
96. Old Elm Club (Lot #4484, Plan #4026C, 1917/32, CGW, ex-Miloma)--sold to CGW (1948) sold to MILW and converted to business car Indiana (1955)--this car was recently listed on Ozark Mountain Railcar
On Tuesday, May 13th, 2014, Rainier Rails wrote:
Some additional info:

96. Old Elm Club (Lot #4484, Plan #4026C, 1917/32, 10S-buf-lng, ex-Miloma)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to MILW and converted to business car Indiana (1955) to R. Dringenburg-Midland RY Historical Association (Baldwin City, KS) recently listed for sale on Ozark Mountain Railcar


The Indiana was moved in June 2011* to Moberly, MO, and located next to the Wabash depot, and is in the process of being cosmetically restored. The car is now lettered as Great Lakes Rail Car (GTLX) #100, although I don't know at this time if Great Lakes purchased the car for display (or donated it to a group/the town of Moberly for display) or if the GTLX reporting marks were simply used for the movement of the car to Moberly.

*The date of June 2011 comes from Rick Morgan, who uploaded the following photograph.

Taken on July 27th, 2012: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3122719

And now for the correction/removal from list:

Back on page #3:

On Monday, January 6th, 2014, Rainier Rails wrote:
90. Michael Faraday (Lot #6054, Plan #3958, 1927, 14S, GM&O)--sold to GM&O and converted to business car #50 (1948) to Isaac Tigrett III to John Paul DeJoria as Patrón Tequila Express (#800539)


I checked the GM&O passenger car diagram folio from January, 1947, which lists that the #50 was built in 1928 by AC&F in Lot #474. As a side note, Wayner lists that the Michael Faraday was purchased by GM&O at the 1948 divestiture and leased to Pullman until April 1953 and was then rebuilt to baggage car #96.

So, the GM&O #50 is removed from this list, and line item #90 is now void.

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:53 am 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
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Location: Morganton, N.C.
Quote:
Now, that being said, was the Ogden car actually rebuilt from a B&O baggage car, or was it rebuilt from a Pullman built for/assigned to the B&O? If the USRM website is correct, than does that mean the car now owned by PCS Phosphate was also a baggage car, not a Pullman? I'm inclined to think that both of these cars were not built as baggage cars, as pictures clearly show a blanked out/removed vestibule.


Anyone know of any shots of this car???

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