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 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:53 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:31 am
Posts: 397
If the work was contracted out, and done improperly, then they should hold the contractor responsible and have them correct the issue. At the very least the NRHS should get their money back.


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 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:04 am 

Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:05 am
Posts: 399
Kelly Anderson wrote:
This is not to say that older boilers didn’t have issues with staybolts being out of square with the sheets. There are plenty of cases of entire sheets having their holes patterns offset to their mating sheets, but generally not by an extreme amount. Off the top of my head, an error of more than ¼” would be unusual.


The old UP 844 crown sheet.

Attachment:
844oldcs.jpg
844oldcs.jpg [ 132.38 KiB | Viewed 3252 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:20 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:14 pm
Posts: 457
Location: Essex, Connecticut, USA
Greetings:
In an earlier post on this thread, Scranton Yard asked if there was "another way to maintain proper staybolt hole alignment".
There have been quite a number of firebox sheets made (mis-made) during the preservation era where some or all of the holes in the new sheet didn't line up with it's mate.
One method usually ignored because it is time consuming and labor intensive is to layout the new sheet empirically, using the mating sheet as a guide.
This is the method we used when we renewed the side sheets and door sheet of our No.40 in 2006-2007.
We fit up and tack welded the undrilled sheets in the firebox and then used a transfer punch (with a guide to insure the correct angle) stuck through the original holes on the outer sheets, to lightly mark the new sheet. Then the tack welds were cut, the new sheets were removed and layed on steel saw horses. The transfer punch marks were then "squared up" as needed to insure nice straight lines and proper spacing, then center punched and drilled to a size that the reamer end of our staybolt taps would start in. Then the sheets were re-installed and welded in place. Fit up bolts were used to hold the sheets with the proper spacing between the inner and outer sheets, staybolts applied and mudring rivets driven.
The sheets fit perfectly (first time).
Be well,
J.David
PS: Check www.essexsteamtrain.com Engine House Blog June 26, 2007 for photos. JDC


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 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:46 pm 

Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:05 am
Posts: 399
Newriver400 wrote:
Since they used a press brake, are the radii at the top corners a true curve or many small bends that accomplish the same thing? Or, did the press brake have rounded dies to facilitate something closer to a radius than several small bends?


UP 844 new crown sheet. No CNC, just 2 guys, a 1400 ton press with a 30ft throat, a bucket of shims and truck load of experience.

Attachment:
844csC.jpg
844csC.jpg [ 80.71 KiB | Viewed 2979 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 4:35 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:43 am
Posts: 388
Location: Dalton, Georgia
M Austin wrote:
Newriver400 wrote:
Since they used a press brake, are the radii at the top corners a true curve or many small bends that accomplish the same thing? Or, did the press brake have rounded dies to facilitate something closer to a radius than several small bends?


UP 844 new crown sheet. No CNC, just 2 guys, a 1400 ton press with a 30ft throat, a bucket of shims and truck load of experience.


Matt,

Thanks for the pic. I note that the top die is round which answers my question about the process.


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 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:03 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1235
Location: Strasburg, PA
Newriver400 wrote:
Since they used a press brake, are the radii at the top corners a true curve or many small bends that accomplish the same thing? Or, did the press brake have rounded dies to facilitate something closer to a radius than several small bends? Although the pics are great, the texture that would reveal the answer to my question isn't readily apparent.

Sorry for the slow reply. There are many small bends, though you have to get right up to the sheet to see traces of them.

Image

Image

M Austin wrote:
Kelly Anderson wrote:
Off the top of my head, an error of more than ¼” would be unusual.

The old UP 844 crown sheet.

Good point. I will clarify by saying that at the time, I was thinking in the context of side sheets with fairly short staybolts. I’ll stick my neck out again by saying that I’ve seldom seen bolts installed in the pre-preservation era that were out of square from what the designer intended due to an “error in fabrication” by more than 10 or 15 degrees.

_________________
"It was not easy to convince Allnutt. All his shop training had given him a profound prejudice against inexact work, experimental work, hit-or-miss work."
C. S. Forester

Strasburg Rail Road Mechanical Department


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 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:28 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:52 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Owego, NY
Newriver400 wrote:
M Austin wrote:
Newriver400 wrote:
Since they used a press brake, are the radii at the top corners a true curve or many small bends that accomplish the same thing? Or, did the press brake have rounded dies to facilitate something closer to a radius than several small bends?


UP 844 new crown sheet. No CNC, just 2 guys, a 1400 ton press with a 30ft throat, a bucket of shims and truck load of experience.


Matt,

Thanks for the pic. I note that the top die is round which answers my question about the process.


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 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:10 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:10 am
Posts: 2332
Hi friends,

If we could move the firebox technical discussions off to their own thread, we can get back to the topic of this thread: updates on #3713... like this one.

Today, northeast PA residents reading their morning news found out that Steamtown and the L&WVRHS have extended the Project #3713 agreement. This is a significant step forward and confirms the commitment of all parties to finish the restoration. Steamtown management is incredibly supportive of the project, as signaled by the renewal.

http://timesleader.com/news/local-news/153048290/

As usual, more things are in the works... stay tuned.

E-donations are welcome at http://www.project3713.com

All the best,

Rob Davis
Project #3713
Co-chair


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 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:41 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 234
Many thanks to Mr. Anderson, Mr. David, and Mr. Austin for stepping up and answering one of my questions as well as to Dave and Newriver400 for the interesting follow up questions that greatly added to the informational content. I now have a better understanding of the fabrication process and the apparent stay bolt hole misalignment I believe I observed on 3713.

Mr. Anderson, great to see the roof sheet for 39. I have many fond memories of climbing around on sister 35 at Eisenhower Park and am greatly looking forward to seeing 39 in steam again. You mentioned that you have "seldom seen bolts installed in the pre-preservation era that were out of square from what the designer intended due to an “error in fabrication” by more than 10 or 15 degrees." How many degrees of misalignment would result in a likely failure of the stay bolts and thus require fabrication of new side sheets?

Mr. Davis, thank you for the link re: the new partnership agreement.

It is my understanding that, under original agreement between the Lackawanna & Wyoming Valley Chapter of the NRHS and the Park Service that was signed 20 years ago in 1995, the LWVRHS assumed all responsibility for the management of the operational restoration of 3713, including the performance of the actual restoration work. The press release in the link you posted states, "The National Park Service will perform much of the actual restoration work, and provide technical assistance to the historical society in order to develop a work strategy for the locomotive’s restoration." It also includes a quote from Superintendent Conway in which she states that, "The Lackawanna and Wyoming Valley Railway Historical Society has been a long-standing partner of Steamtown National Historic Site and we are very happy that they have agreed to continue the challenge of raising the funds necessary to restore this historic steam locomotive to operating condition."

Taken together, these two statements could be read as to indicate that the LWVRHS' level of responsibility in the project has been reduced from its original role to that of being a fundraising and public relations mechanism for the work that will now be directed, managed, and performed by the Park Service. Has, after 20 years, the LWVRHS' role in this project now been reduced under this new agreement? If so, why?


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 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:32 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:47 pm
Posts: 475
Scranton Yard wrote:
Many thanks to Mr. Anderson, Mr. David, and Mr. Austin for stepping up and answering one of my questions as well as to Dave and Newriver400 for the interesting follow up questions that greatly added to the informational content. I now have a better understanding of the fabrication process and the apparent stay bolt hole misalignment I believe I observed on 3713.

Mr. Anderson, great to see the roof sheet for 39. I have many fond memories of climbing around on sister 35 at Eisenhower Park and am greatly looking forward to seeing 39 in steam again. You mentioned that you have "seldom seen bolts installed in the pre-preservation era that were out of square from what the designer intended due to an “error in fabrication” by more than 10 or 15 degrees." How many degrees of misalignment would result in a likely failure of the stay bolts and thus require fabrication of new side sheets?

Mr. Davis, thank you for the link re: the new partnership agreement.

It is my understanding that, under original agreement between the Lackawanna & Wyoming Valley Chapter of the NRHS and the Park Service that was signed 20 years ago in 1995, the LWVRHS assumed all responsibility for the management of the operational restoration of 3713, including the performance of the actual restoration work. The press release in the link you posted states, "The National Park Service will perform much of the actual restoration work, and provide technical assistance to the historical society in order to develop a work strategy for the locomotive’s restoration." It also includes a quote from Superintendent Conway in which she states that, "The Lackawanna and Wyoming Valley Railway Historical Society has been a long-standing partner of Steamtown National Historic Site and we are very happy that they have agreed to continue the challenge of raising the funds necessary to restore this historic steam locomotive to operating condition."

Taken together, these two statements could be read as to indicate that the LWVRHS' level of responsibility in the project has been reduced from its original role to that of being a fundraising and public relations mechanism for the work that will now be directed, managed, and performed by the Park Service. Has, after 20 years, the LWVRHS' role in this project now been reduced under this new agreement? If so, why?


Maybe to try and expedite the process. Steamtown's main focus for the past decade or so had been the overhaul of 26 and the upkeep of 2317 and 3254, so it was beneficial to them to have an outside group handle the work on 3713. With 2317 and 3254 now out of service and 26 nearing completion, maybe they find themselves in a better position to do the work themselves. It's probably more beneficial to the L&WV group, as they can now focus solely on fundraising instead of also dealing with contractors.

This is purely speculation on my part, but seems to fit.

_________________
Mark Z. Yerkes
Amateur Rail Historian


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 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:23 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1235
Location: Strasburg, PA
Scranton Yard wrote:
You mentioned that you have "seldom seen bolts installed in the pre-preservation era that were out of square from what the designer intended due to an “error in fabrication” by more than 10 or 15 degrees." How many degrees of misalignment would result in a likely failure of the stay bolts and thus require fabrication of new side sheets?

There is no way to tell. Every boiler expands differently, and depending on the location of a given bolt in the firebox, and the direction that it is out of square, the results are completely variable. A bolt that is out of square in the direction of expansion would get closer to being square as the boiler heated up and I would think would fare better than one out of square in the opposite direction from where expansion would take the sheet. Having those two bolts next to each other would be worse still.

Backhead braces are by nature installed out of square with the sheets. As I recall ASME calls for the braces to be increased in diameter to compensate for lost strength if the angle exceeds 15 degrees out of square.

That's enough of that. Let's respect Mr. Davis' request and start a new thread if there are other questions on staybolt installation.

_________________
"It was not easy to convince Allnutt. All his shop training had given him a profound prejudice against inexact work, experimental work, hit-or-miss work."
C. S. Forester

Strasburg Rail Road Mechanical Department


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 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:13 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:10 am
Posts: 2332
5 pages is deep enough for this thread. The conversation continues in part 2 at http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38239 with news of #765 excursions that will, in part, benefit #3713.

Rob Davis
Co-Chair
Project#3713


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