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 Post subject: Re: Budd Observation Cars
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 9:28 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
Posts: 343
Location: Morganton, N.C.
Speaking of Budd observation cars there has been one that has not been photographed for a number of years finally showing itself @ Whippany Rwy. Museum. The car, originally built by Budd as a lunch counter - lounge observation car for Chesapeake & Ohio as their 1900 was selected for rebuilding into business car 19 for Robert Young who was then president of the C&O. When the made the move to New York Central he took the car with him, where it became NYC 28. After he commited suicide the car was sold to Grand Trunk Western, becoming GTW Adios II. From GTW the car was moved to CN's business car fleet, first being numbered 90 and later being renumbered to 98 before being sold to a private owner who supposedly lived in Florida, who kept the car inside a building. The car now carries the name FANTASIA...

http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=4179542

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 Post subject: Re: Budd Observation Cars
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 9:46 pm 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Thanks, Jerry, for the info on C&O #1900!

Thanks, Stephen, for posting the correction!

Expanding on the ownership histories of these 2 cars:

Both were originally built with a total of 57 seats; the capacities were reduced at the startup of Amtrak, and both were sold in 1981. The parties who acquired the cars in 1981 are found in W. David Randall's "Railway Passenger Car Annual, Volume 6" (1984).

FEC Lake Worth to SAL #6606 to SCL #5850 to Amtrak #3338 (50 seats), stored at Los Angeles (when??) and sold in 1981 to J. Rolland & W. Rolland. I'm thinking this was the car that was owned by Standard Industries and then Jim Stephenson (in Houston), but if anyone can confirm this, or instead confirm that it was the Bay Biscayne, thanks in advance! In my notes, I have 2 additional parties who owned this car after Stephenson; one of these would of course be CSX. Does anyone know who the other party was? Also, does anyone know when this car changed hands between said parties? Thanks in advance! Sold in late 1988 to New Georgia RR as NGRX #1508 Steve Polk, sold at auction in 1995 to Stone Mountain Memorial Association-Atlanta, Stone Mountain & Lithonia RR as ASML #1508 S. Polk, sold in 2002 to SW Georgia RR Excursion Authority-SAM Shortline-Heart of Georgia RR as SWGX #1508 S. Polk.

FEC Bay Biscayne to SAL #6607 to SCL #5851 to Amtrak #3339 (48 seats), sold in 1981 to J.R. Reech. Most likely retired and stored before sale in 1981. Sold (when??) to Broadway Dinner Train as BWDX #6607 City of Memphis, later (when??) resold to BC Rail as BCOL #1751 Pavilion for Pacific Starlight Dinner Train, then (2002?) to VIA Rail #1751. I haven't seen any recent photos of this car. Does anyone know if it is still in service or currently stored? Thanks in advance!

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 Post subject: Re: Budd Observation Cars
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 10:10 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
Posts: 343
Location: Morganton, N.C.
Quote:
Does anyone know if it is still in service or currently stored?


Its reportedly been stored ever since VIA purchased the car, never actually being put into service. At one time they had a half-way decent pic on the VIA website but it was took down a couple years ago... the car remains in BCOL paint.

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 Post subject: Re: Budd Observation Cars
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 10:55 pm 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Thanks, Jerry, for the info on the Bay Biscayne/Pavilion!

A few notes on the Fantasia:

Delivered in July 1948, C&O #1900 was 1 of 3 cars (#1900-#1902) built in Lot #9651-017 with a 6 seat lunch counter and 43 lounge seats. According to Randall, these cars were not built with the blunt end observations, but that may be in error. If not in error, than the Fantasia is another example of a Budd car which had an obervation end added during a rebuild, other cars include domes Puget Sound and Silver Chalet. Anyways, the #1900 was rebuilt to the #19 in 1953, and went to the NYC as #28 in 1954. After Young's death, the car did not immediately go to GTW: NYC sold the car to a Mrs. Charles Payson in 1959, who named it Adios II. (So what car was named Adios I?) Payson resold the Adios II to GTW in 1968 as #90. There was another #90 on the CN/GTW roster: CN #90, renumbered from CN #22 in 1975 (built by NSC in 1959). Interestingly, the Adios II was not renumbered from GTW #90 until 1977, and not as CN #98, but CN #97. CN #98, named Bonaventure, was another 1 of the 6 business cars built by NSC in 1959. Regarding when the Adios II was retired and sold, this might have been when CN retired several other business cars, in 1992.

Besides the #1900, Randall lists that the #1901 and #1902 were sold in 1951 to "E.R.S.A." At this time, I have not been able to determine what E.R.S.A. was/is, which also acquired 10 other C&O Budd cars from the Chessie order: baggage-28 seat chairs #1400 and #1401 (Lot #9675-017, ordered in January 1946 and delivered in July 1948) and 36 seat chair-8 seat smokers #1501-#1503, #1506-#1509, and #1511 (Lot #9673-017, ordered in July 1945 and delivered in June 1948). The 12 cars in this Lot (#1500-#1511) had the vestibules located at the rear, while the nearly identical 10 cars (#1600-#1609) built in Lot #9621-017 (ordered in January 1946 and delivered in June 1948) had the vestibules located at the front.

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Last edited by Rainier Rails on Thu May 14, 2015 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Budd Observation Cars
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 11:22 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
Posts: 343
Location: Morganton, N.C.
Quote:
According to Randall, these cars were not built with the blunt end observations, but that may be in error.


The error is mine... not Randall's. Thanks for filling in some of the pieces for this car's history!!! Anyone have any idea of who "E.R.S.A." is in Randall's Budd book? The other two cars in this series were sold to them.

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 Post subject: Re: Budd Observation Cars
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 12:19 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:49 pm
Posts: 347
The Bay Biscayne was the car at Standard Industries in CA that was sold to Jim Stephenson, not the Lake Worth.

"FEC Bay Biscayne sold 1965 to SAL #6607 to SCL #5851 to Amtrak #3339 sold 1981 to Standard Industries to Jim Stephenson to private owner to Broadway Dinner Train (BWDX) #6607 City of Memphis to BC Rail (BCOL) #1751 Pavilion for Pacific Starlight Dinner Train to VIA Rail #1751."

The above history posted by Stephen Syfrett should be the correct history for the Bay Biscayne.


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 Post subject: Re: Budd Observation Cars
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 12:25 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:49 pm
Posts: 347
The fact that the former C&O 19 has shown up in Whippany suggests the car has finally been sold.


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 Post subject: Re: Budd Observation Cars
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 12:26 am 

Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 11:27 am
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Location: Switching the Coach Yard
E.R.S.A. is Argentina, isn't it???

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 Post subject: Re: Budd Observation Cars
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 12:43 am 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Thanks, Jerry, for the clarification on C&O #1900/#19!

Thanks, Topfuel, for the clarifications on FEC Bay Biscayne and C&O #1900/#19!

Thanks, ETA, for identifying E.R.S.A. as Argentina!

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 Post subject: Re: Budd Observation Cars
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 1:18 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:22 pm
Posts: 173
Glad to see some information on the Fantasia - I'd seen it for sale and aws quite curious as it's an unusual car.

CD


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 Post subject: Re: Budd Observation Cars
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 1:44 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:49 pm
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A very interesting footnote about the Chessie cars that went to ERSA. As of roughly 2009, many of those cars were still in service, looking not much worse for 60-odd years of wear, including Full Width Diaphrams still in use! I guess they never got the memo that it is OK to remove them. I'd sure like to see more photos of those cars down there.


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 Post subject: Re: Budd Observation Cars
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 6:39 pm 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Does anyone know of photos online of the C&O cars in Argentina? I didn't have any luck in finding some. Thanks in advance!

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 Post subject: Re: Budd Observation Cars
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 9:53 pm 

Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 11:27 am
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Location: Switching the Coach Yard
I've seen pictures somewhere, just can't remember if it was someone's personal collection or online.

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 Post subject: Re: Budd Observation Cars
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 10:36 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:49 pm
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I've got 2 pictures of the Chessie cars in Argentina I saved off the internet when I found the above posted info. But I don't have a photographer of record and I know people get all bent out of shape when posting pictures on line and not crediting the photog. So I'm kind of hamstrung from posting them.


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 Post subject: Re: Budd Observation Cars
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:23 am 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
On Monday, February 17th, 2014, 4th Post on Page #2, Rainier Rails wrote:
Here's the rest of the prewar cars:

Round End Cars:

Chicago, Burlington & Quincy:

One Car, 1940, Lot #96120, 24 seat diner 22 seat parlor observation, general pool:

CB&Q #303 Silver Fountain sold in 1968 to G.A. Avril Company (Cincinnati)


As posted by Andy Harman on the Passenger Car List (Yahoo Finance), the Silver Fountain is being moved on a flatcar from the Cincinnati area (specifically Newtown) down to Stearns, KY, for restoration; the current owner of the car is not identified. He goes on to say that from 1968, when the car was purchased from the Burlington, until around 10 years ago, the car sat in storage next to said business (by the 80's it had been vandalized), and it was then moved to Newtown; this was after several unsuccessful attempts by the RY Exposition Co./RY Museum of Greater Cincinnati to acquire the car. He doesn't say who was involved in the move 10+ years back, or if it is the same party/parties who are now moving the car to Stearns.

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Have a Merry Christmas!

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