RE: Indiana

I wonder if it was heavily modified when it was converted from the Pullman Miloma to the MILW business car Indiana? Is it possible to tell by glancing at the original floor plan for that lot/plan and comparing it with the present-day interior photos?

Edit:
A very interesting side note -
I was curious about the unusual name, "Miloma", so did a search. According to Wikipedia, "Miloma" is the name of an unincorporated community in Minnesota, which got its name from names of railroads. Quote: "The name of the community is a double contraction, Milwaukee and Omaha, from the names of two railroads, the Chicago, Milwaukee & Saint Paul and the Chicago, Minneapolis & Omaha." Interesting! It would be nice to see the car restored as the Pullman "Miloma" provided that it has not been heavily altered from its sleeping car configuration.

Won't do much good to look at a Plan 4026 floorplan... when MILW rebuilt the car it was a bit of heavy work... including moving the observation end to the vestibule end of the car. Plan 4026 cars had a solarium end on the opposite end of the car.

The plan for 4026 cars can be seen at the link below...

http://collections.carli.illinois.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/nby_pullman&CISOPTR=1089&DMSCALE=50&DMWIDTH=600&DMHEIGHT=600&DMX=0&DMY=0&DMMODE=viewer&DMTEXT=%20Plan%204026&REC=3&DMTHUMB=0&DMROTATE=0

Updates:

As posted by J. David Conrad in the "Mid-Continent Auction Preliminary Report" thread: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38024

97. Mt. Harvard (Lot #4742, Plan #3521L, 1923/40, 10S-buf-lng-sol-obs)--retained (12/31/1948)--donated to Wabash Frisco & Pacific Association (St. Louis) (1961) sold to 2 Mid-Continent members (Fond du Lac) (1971) sold to another museum member (1972) moved to North Freedom (April 1973) donated to Mid-Continent Railway Museum (1987) sold at auction for $37,000 to Roger Kramer for Illinois Railway Museum (2015).

203. Sumter (Lot #4222, Plan #2522A, 1913/42, 7C-2DR)--sold to CN and rebuilt to Class PB-73-M-2 52 seat coach-24 seat smoker #5375 (1942) later rebuilt to 78 seat/110 standee commuter coach (when??) donated to Lake Superior Museum of Transportation (1975) sold to Mid-Continent Railway Museum (April 1993) sold at auction for $10,000 to bed and breakfast (2015).

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

3. Mid-Continent page for Mt. Harvard: http://www.midcontinent.org/equipment-roster/steel-passenger-cars/mt-harvard/

4. Mid-Continent page for #5375: http://www.midcontinent.org/equipment-roster/steel-passenger-cars/canadian-national-5375/

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

89. Palm Lane (Lot #6217, Plan #3975C/H, 1929/32, 3C-2DR-buf-lng-sol-obs, Seminole Limited)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to James E. Strates Shows as #2 (1st) Syracuse, New York (1956) in flood at Wilkes-Barre, PA, and subsequently donated to Central NY Chapter NRHS (1972) long-term lease to Iowa Pacific and moved to Alamosa, CO (2012).

Here's a photo I found on Flickr of the Syracuse loaded on TTX flatcar ITTX #970672 for transport to Alamosa, taken by "t55z" from the Lake Shore Limited on November 17th, 2012: https://www.flickr.com/photos/54690684@N07/8195616389/

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

3. Central NY Chapter past projects page: http://www.cnynrhs.org/past.html

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

203. Sumter (Lot #4222, Plan #2522A, 1913/42, 7C-2DR)--sold to CN and rebuilt to Class PB-73-M-2 52 seat coach-24 seat smoker #5375 (1942) later rebuilt to 78 seat/110 standee commuter coach (when??) donated to Lake Superior Museum of Transportation (1975) sold to Mid-Continent Railway Museum (April 1993) sold at auction for $10,000 to bed and breakfast (2015).

That series of cars were stripped and configured as commuter coaches between 1965 and 1966. You could actually see where the original 1st class washrooms had been, as walls had been removed and the paneling as well as flooring was never redone to blend with the remainder of the coach. Cars were mainly used in Montreal for North Shore service.

Thanks, Richard, for the info on CN #5375! I have the CN diagram folio from March 1968, which lists that besides the #5375, there were 15 other ex-Pullman coaches converted for commuter service. The folio does list what the original seating capacities were before conversion, but in most cases, not how seating was arranged (i.e., size of smoking end vs. coach end), and in the case of at least one car, it appears that the seating was not altered. Any help in clarifying this would be very helpful!

Class PB-77-A-1 #5334 (ex-Eagle Valley, Lot #4885, Plan #3951L, 1925, baggage-buffet-club-smoker-barber shop, general service pool). The data sheet lists this car had 80 seats (as Class PB-77-A), the diagram lists a capacity of 72, and yet, looking at the actual seating arrangement, it appears to be 76 seats (row per window)! Perhaps the "72" excluded 4 seats reserved for the conductor?

Class PB-77-B #5351 (ex-Edward Hopkins, Lot #4786, Plan #3415, 1924, baggage-buffet-club-smoker, nee-John Adams*, Congressional Limited). The data sheet lists that this car had 80 seats, which is the number of seats shown on the diagram, which also lists a capacity of 72 standees. Also, the diagram shows that the #5351 (along with #5348-#5350, #5352, and #5361) had a 24 seat smoker section at the non-vestibule (men's) end. Was the partition between the smoker and coach sections removed when the car entered commuter service?

*Madden lists that the Edward Hopkins was renamed in September 1930 from the John Adams, and that the 2nd car built in this Lot for the Congressional, the James Madison, was renamed to Edward Winslow. Wayner has this reversed: the James Madison to E. Hopkins and the John Adams to E. Winslow. Despite the conflicting data, the E. Winslow was also acquired by CN and rebuilt to chair #5352.

Class PB-73-M-3 #5362 (ex-Coliseum, Lot #4318, Plan #3966, 1915/26, gymnasium-barber shop-shower bath-library-lounge-recreation hall (movies and lectures), Raymond & Whitcomb travel agency, nee-Plan #2410B 12S-1DR Kindersley, general service pool). The data sheet lists that this car had 76 seats, while the diagram lists a capacity of 60 (16 in the smoker and 44 in coach). However, it appears that this was not the original capacity: in the smoker, it seems 8 chairs were replaced by 6 seats facing the aisle; the same change was made in the coach section. This would place the original capacity at 76, as listed on the data sheet, and the modified capacity at 72. The Coliseum was 1 of 3 Plan #3966 cars that were built using the frames of wrecked 12-1 sleepers: although the wreck information is not listed, the Kindersley was scrapped by Pullman on June 30th, 1925; the Coliseum was outshopped on April 1st of the following year.

Class PB-73-M-2 #5363 (ex-Niagara Falls, Lot #4252, Plan #2505A, 1914, 10C, NYC). The data sheet lists that this car originally had 76 seats; after conversion for commuter service, this car had the same configuration as the #5375: 78 seats and 110 standees. Besides the #5363 and #5375, the #5365-#5367, #5369, and #5371-#5372 are listed in the data sheet as originally having 76 seats.

Class PB-73-M-2 #5365 (ex-Canatha, Lot #3943, Plan #2522, 1911, 7C-2DR). Kratville lists that the 10 cars built in this Lot were for "Extra Limited" service; was "Extra Limited" a named train?

Class PB-73-M-2 #5366 (ex-Glenfinlas, Lot #3867, Plan #2522, 1910, 7C-2DR, general service pool).

Class PB-73-M-2 #5367 (ex-Jemez, Lot #3941, Plan #2522, 1911, 7C-2DR, California Limited).

Class PB-73-M-2 #5369 (ex-Shinumo, Lot #3941, Plan #2522, 1911, 7C-2DR, California Limited).

Class PB-73-M-4 #5370 (ex-Vaca, Lot #3941, Plan #2522, 1911, 7C-2DR, Santa Fe de Luxe).

Class PB-73-M-2 #5371 (ex-Walpi, Lot #3941, Plan #2522, 1911, 7C-2DR, Santa Fe de Luxe).

390. Class PB-73-M-2 #5372 (ex-Dixiana, Lot #4222, Plan #2522A, 1913, 7C-2DR, general service pool/Florida and winter service). Sold in September 1970 to the Kapuskasing & District Historical Society and located at the Ron Morel Memorial Museum next to the CN depot in Kapuskasing, Ontario.

Class PB-73-M-3 #5377 (ex-Dome Rock, Lot #4092, Plan #2584, 1913, 10S-2DR, Golden State Limited).

Class PB-73-M-3 #5378 (ex-Fort Erie, Lot #3945, Plan #2584, 1912, 10S-2DR, NYC).

Class PB-73-M-3 #5379 (ex-Glen Park, Lot #3945, Plan #2584, 1912, 10S-2DR, NYC).

Class PB-73-M-3 #5380 (ex-High Gate, Lot #3945, Plan #2584, 1912, 10S-2DR, NYC). The folio index notes that this one of the cars reassigned to commuter service, however, it also lists that it was reassigned to MofW service in October 1966 as #63161.

Sources:

1. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

2. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. CN passenger car diagram folio issued March 1968

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

I received some information on another sleeper which was sold by Pullman to private ownership, but is not an extant car:

Poplar Heights (Lot #4624, Plan #4060A, 1921/37, 6S-6DB, ex-Plan #2411C 12S-1DR-1C Antiphon)--sold to PRR #8580 (1948), withheld from lease on 2/14/1966, and listed by Wayner as sold to the Railcar Leasing Corporation.

I was sent information by the car's former owner, Bob Havens:



I also included this information in the Al Chione thread as a follow up to a slide of the Poplar Heights I scanned and posted therein:

Al Chione thread (this slide is on pages #7 and #8): http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37475

The scanned slide can be found here: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=4142114



Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

A whole bunch of corrections and updates on 5 of C&NW's business cars converted from Pullmans:

This started out as a request for information regarding the current status/location of 1 of these cars, the #402 Iowa, on Trainorders: http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3745126

New information or corrections are underlined, date changes or unknown dates are in blue, and changes in the numbering sequence are in red. (A few additional notes are in green.)

Previous posts regarding these cars:



280. Van Cortlandt (Lot #6371, Plan #3987, 1930/45, baggage-buffet-club-smoker-barber, 20th Century Limited)--sold to SOU (1945) and rebuilt at Hayne Shop to business car #2 (1947), assigned to VP of Operations William H. Moore, Sr., to PC #1 when Moore became PC’s President (in trade for 4 lightweight baggage cars to be used on the Crescent) (1971), sold to private owner (1974), sold to C&NW as #402 (when?), name Iowa applied (1985-86), assigned to George F. Maybee, VP & General Manager, Iowa Division, sold to John Baldwin and used on charters over the E&LS, WC, Great Lakes Western Rail Tours, and other roads (1991), sold to Jon Nienow (1993), refurbished at DM&IR shops in Proctor, MN and painted as SOU #2, kept indoors in Stockton, MN. The work at the Iron Range shops included media blasting to bare metal, application of DuPont etching primer (rust preventative), application of DuPont Imron (Pullman Green), and application of DuPont clear coat. Never assigned an #800xxx-series number.

93. Thompson (Lot #4845, Plan #3410, 1925/53, 12S-1DR, Oriental Limited)--sold to CGW (1948) rebuilt to business car #100 (1953) to C&NW via merger, initially stayed #100 in CGW maroon & black (1968), later repainted yellow & green, still as #100 (when?), later renumbered to C&NW #401 (2nd) for use as a track geometry car, with bedroom C removed (when?), renumbered to #403 (1981), name Minnesota applied (1985-86), to UP via merger (1995), sold to North Carolina DOT as RNCX #400000 (1st), planned to be renamed Governor John “Motey” Morehead, which was not applied (1996), stored (still in faded C&NW paint) until sold to Nelson McGahee as PPCX #29/#800029 Dearing, painted in Georgia RR dark green with red roof (2006). Dearing, GA, is at MP 29 on the Georgia RR, hence the car’s current name and numbers.

346. Capitol Road (Lot #4923, Plan #3521A, 1925/49, 10S-lounge observation, Capitol Limited, ex-Monte Viso)--sold to C&NW (1948) and rebuilt to business car #400 (2nd) with 2 double-occupancy staterooms and a secretary’s room, assigned to company President (rebuild likely completed in 1949), renumbered to #401 (3rd) (1981), renumbered to #404 (3rd) (1982), name Wyoming applied (1985-86), kitchen end damaged by a fire caused by a fuel leak at Norfolk, NE, car returned to Chicago on freight, C&NW assessed the damage and decided not to repair it. Sold to Ralph Justen-Great Lakes Western and renamed Wisconsin (1991), later resold to private ownership as the Carolyn (when?), listed for sale on Ozark Mountain Railcar and acquired by the Valley RR as VRRX #400 (2014), moved to Essex, CT, via Willard, OH, and Cumberland, MD (mid-April 2015).

281. Mt. Thielsen (Lot #4998, Plan #3521A, 1926/49, 10S-lounge observation, general pool)--sold to L&N (1948), rebuilt to business car #375 (1949), sold to C&NW as #401 (4th) (1982), name Chicago applied (1985-86), to UP via merger (1995), sold to the Fleming Company (1998), later resold to the Webb Family (when?) and used in excursion/special event service over the Kansas & Oklahoma/South Kansas & Oklahoma roads. Resold again and moved to Corpus Christi, TX (when?).

258. Minikahda Club (Lot #6301, Plan #3995B, 1929/35/80, 2SB-2DB-2C-1DR-lounge, Blackhawk, ex-Plan #3995 4SB-2C-1DR-lounge Minnekahda Club)--sold to NYNH&H #775 (1948), reassigned as a crew dormitory as #100 (1955), sold to Genesee & Wyoming #1 Edward I (1968), sold to C&NW and rebuilt to a business car as the #404 (2nd) with 4 bedrooms (1980), reassigned to the mechanical department as the #440 (1982), donated to the Mid-Continent RY Museum, which named it the Philip R. Hastings, used as the observation car on #1385 excursions (1983). Never assigned an #800xxx-series number.

The idea to give these business cars names, as well as to modify the paint scheme to that of the 400 streamliners, and to restore the stainless steel paneling on the F units, came about during a banquet at Mid-Continent in late 1985.

After being sold to John Baldwin and Ralph Justen respectively, the #402 Iowa and the #404 (3rd) Wyoming were moved from California Avenue, Chicago, to Proviso Yard on November 7th, 1991. On the 8th, the cars were moved on freight train PRITA from Proviso to Altoona, WI, arriving shortly past midnight. Moved on the 9th on train PREMA from Altoona to St. Paul, then over to the Minnesota Commercial in the afternoon. Moved in the afternoon of the 10th from the MC to the Wisconsin Central. Departed the morning of the 11th for Stevens Point, WI, arriving in the afternoon. Departed Stevens Point at 1:30 in the morning of the 12th for North Fond du Lac, WI. The cars were then moved to the Great Lakes Western facility in Mukwonago, WI. From California Avenue to North Fond du Lac, the cars were occupied by their new owners.

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. Jerry LaBoda's photo links database: http://passcarphotos.info/

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Some pictures taken by Jon Nienow of his SOU #2 (nee-Van Cortlandt):

3 more.

Last one.

The #1346 was wrecked on either 12/29 or 12/30/1960, on southbound train #408 at Meeker, Puyallup, WA. #1346 and #1365 jackknifed out across the adjacent Pioneer Way. Many of the 450 passengers were enroute to the Rose Bowl via a connection to SP's Cascade at Portland. After several hours, the 8 cars which did not derail continued south, with SP holding the Cascade to ensure the connection.

Some photos of the wreck, from the Jim M. Fredrickson Collection on the NP Railway Historical Association's website:

http://www.nprha.org/Lists/Jim%20Fredrickson%20Integrated%20Photo%20List/DispForm.aspx?ID=5092&ContentTypeId=0x0100DC48C83D7DE6E14D8EE2EEDB5ABAAAEB



http://www.nprha.org/Lists/Jim%20Fredrickson%20Integrated%20Photo%20List/DispForm.aspx?ID=5093&ContentTypeId=0x0100DC48C83D7DE6E14D8EE2EEDB5ABAAAEB



http://www.nprha.org/Lists/Jim%20Fredrickson%20Integrated%20Photo%20List/DispForm.aspx?ID=5095&ContentTypeId=0x0100DC48C83D7DE6E14D8EE2EEDB5ABAAAEB



http://www.nprha.org/Lists/Jim%20Fredrickson%20Integrated%20Photo%20List/DispForm.aspx?ID=5098&ContentTypeId=0x0100DC48C83D7DE6E14D8EE2EEDB5ABAAAEB



http://www.nprha.org/Lists/Jim%20Fredrickson%20Integrated%20Photo%20List/DispForm.aspx?ID=5100&ContentTypeId=0x0100DC48C83D7DE6E14D8EE2EEDB5ABAAAEB



http://www.nprha.org/Lists/Jim%20Fredrickson%20Integrated%20Photo%20List/DispForm.aspx?ID=5101&ContentTypeId=0x0100DC48C83D7DE6E14D8EE2EEDB5ABAAAEB



http://www.nprha.org/Lists/Jim%20Fredrickson%20Integrated%20Photo%20List/DispForm.aspx?ID=5102&ContentTypeId=0x0100DC48C83D7DE6E14D8EE2EEDB5ABAAAEB



http://www.nprha.org/Lists/Jim%20Fredrickson%20Integrated%20Photo%20List/DispForm.aspx?ID=5104&ContentTypeId=0x0100DC48C83D7DE6E14D8EE2EEDB5ABAAAEB



http://www.nprha.org/Lists/Jim%20Fredrickson%20Integrated%20Photo%20List/DispForm.aspx?ID=5105&ContentTypeId=0x0100DC48C83D7DE6E14D8EE2EEDB5ABAAAEB



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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

A correction: the former Minikahda Club was initially the #404 (1st), not the #404 (2nd), which was the former B&A #99/NYC #6/P&LE #99 Sea Level (Pullman, 1928) acquired in 1981. The Sea Level was renumbered from #404 (2nd) to #400 (3rd) in 1982.

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

In looking again at Dean's photos of LSTX #5, I'm thinking this is not the former Central House. I compared these to photos of other surviving Plan #3959 cars, the Central Park, Central Plateau, and Central Plains (in service on the first American Freedom Train before sale to SP and conversion to business car #106 Shasta/Oregon), and now its apparent that the window arrangement and platform of LSTX #5 is entirely different, and I think I have figured out this car's actual history:

On their website, LASTA states that the #5 was formerly a hospital ward car named Azalea. Well, the conversation about hospital ward and mortuary cars on page #29 got me thinking about what cars are known to have been sold by Pullman for such use. Checking Madden's spreadsheet, there was a Plan #3416 parlor named Azalea sold to the government in 1942 and converted to hospital ward car #17, later #89000, and likely later used in mortuary service. The window arrangement of the LSTX #5, as well as the presence of the double doors at the vestibule end, would confirm this to be the correct history. So, therefore, line item #148 is hereby changed from Central House to Azalea:

148. Azalea (Lot #4958, Plan #3416, 1926, 1DR-plr [28], general service pool)--sold to U.S. Army hospital ward car #17 (1942) to #89000 (when??) sold to private ownership? (when??) sold to Louisiana Steam Train Assocation as LSTX #5 Jefferson (when??)

Now, this leaves the question: what about the Central House?

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

After communicating with Jerry, he pointed out the obvious that the windows did indeed line up with the Plan #3959 Central-series. What was confusing me is that as part of the conversion to a hospital car, Pullman closed off the original platform, and the double litter doors were installed in the former observation lounge. When this car was sold to private ownership, a new platform was made out of the original vestibule! And Jerry also provided a link to a photo I remember seeing of this car when it was privately owned as the Tampa and parked in Tampa back in the mid-1970's: https://www.flickr.com/photos/alcomike/5885606411 (Mike Robbins photo)

So, I'm changing this back to the Central House:

148. Central House (Lot #4886, Plan #3959, 1925, 3C-2DR-lng-obs, NYC St. Louis-New York service)--sold to U.S. Government and converted to hospital ward car #17 (1943) later to #89000 (when??) sold to private ownership as the Tampa (196?*) renamed Azalea?, perhaps another private owner? (when??) to Louisiana Steam Train Association as LSTX #5 Jefferson (when??)

*I'm thinking 1960-something as this car could easily have been one of a number of cars that were stored by the government in Terre Haute, IN. I have yet to see a full list of cars that were stored, which I think would help to clear up the histories of several surviving cars.

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.