Adirondack RR: NY State wants to rip up 34 miles of track

J3a-614 · **Posted:** Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:41 pm

In other news, the Upper Hudson Rail Trail group has its eyes on the Saratoga & North Creek:

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php? ... 37&fref=nf

Text:

We are considering expanding our mission to include the entire 90-mile rail corridor from Saratoga Springs to North Creek to Tahawus. There is opportunity - the railroad venture has not gone well, and the operating contract expires in 2016.

Reading T1 2124 · **Posted:** Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:02 am

J3a-614 wrote:

In other news, the Upper Hudson Rail Trail group has its eyes on the Saratoga & North Creek:

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php? ... 37&fref=nf

Text:

We are considering expanding our mission to include the entire 90-mile rail corridor from Saratoga Springs to North Creek to Tahawus. There is opportunity - the railroad venture has not gone well, and the operating contract expires in 2016.

Seriously, are they out to get us? If they have their way, they will wipe out a great portion of the scenic railroads in upstate New York. If we're going to let these bikers and people with snow machines get what they want they should at lest make it a rail with trail, not a direct attack on our hobby.

daylight4449 · **Posted:** Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:54 pm

Reading T1 2124 wrote:

J3a-614 wrote:

In other news, the Upper Hudson Rail Trail group has its eyes on the Saratoga & North Creek:

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php? ... 37&fref=nf

Text:

We are considering expanding our mission to include the entire 90-mile rail corridor from Saratoga Springs to North Creek to Tahawus. There is opportunity - the railroad venture has not gone well, and the operating contract expires in 2016.

Seriously, are they out to get us? If they have their way, they will wipe out a great portion of the scenic railroads in upstate New York. If we're going to let these bikers and people with snow machines get what they want they should at lest make it a rail with trail, not a direct attack on our hobby.

I'd hate to be stating the obvious, but ya they're out to get 'us'. You could argue that these people are a bunch of NIMBYs, but I'm more inclined to think they're more like modern day hippies; Whatever they say is right, nothing else matters because everyone else is wrong for not agreeing with their position, and they'll do anything necessary to meet their goals (through slander, intimidation and schmoozing).

Now, I doubt they'd have nearly as much luck with taking out the S&NC, only because their assertion that the contract has not gone well seems to be rather flawed. Unless I missed something, they mustn't like looking at reality. Every report I've seen suggests that S&NC has at least done a decent business, and the community seems to be in favor of the operation...

J3a-614 · **Posted:** Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:13 pm

Talk about some attitudes among the trail people--

David Notarius is pretty well known here. Although from Great Britain, he shares with us the appreciation of railways, their heritage and technology. He attempted to hold a bit of an olive branch to Upper Hudson:

Quote:

David Notarius While I think it's great that you want to expand your trail network, I think you should work with the railroads in a constructive way, instead of removing the tracks. There is no reason why both railway and trail can not work or even be side by side!

And this is what an administrator at Upper Hudson had to say:

Quote:

Upper Hudson Rail Trail This is a good example of a comment from a rail fan. This one is more civilized than most, and seemingly thoughtful. Mr. Notarius must know something about railroad engineering, so he knows the reasons that make a bike trail alongside an active railway extremely expensive, if at all possible. His comment is disingenuous and diversionary. He's slipping us a poison pill.

For the truth, look no further than the failed attempts to do rail and trail (both) between Lake Placid and Ray Brook. Sounds nice. Doesn't work. Rail trails exist because they start with a prepared bed, physical and legal.

Mr. Notarius is also meddling in our local affairs, in his case from quite a distance: England.

There is a thread that these trail people don't like outside rail enthusiasts commenting. But is truth limited to Upper Hudson or Ulster County?

What if the West Virginia legislature in 1963 decided it didn't want to listen to a Pennsylvanian named Russell Baum who had ideas about a mountain logger in Pocahontas County?

Reading T1 2124 · **Posted:** Sat Jun 27, 2015 3:08 pm

"Failed" attempts. Look at Steam Into History, York, PA. Both the railroad and trail are thriving. Does anyone have contact information, particularly E-mail or P.O. box? I'll be the next one to calmly throw these jokers some facts and I'll post the results.

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:22 pm

Mention the Western Md. Scenic while you're at it.

J3a-614 · **Posted:** Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:23 pm

Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

Mention the Western Md. Scenic while you're at it.

A reminder about the Western Maryland Scenic--the trail crowd wanted to get rid of it, too for a while. Their explanation was the fear of trains being close to hikers and bikers, and the question of safety in the tunnel. Neither has turned out to be a problem, but it was touch and go for a while, and there are still trail people who don't like "that smelly old train."

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35870&p=206348

J3a-614 · **Posted:** Sun Jun 28, 2015 3:08 am

Reading T1 2124 wrote:

"Failed" attempts. Look at Steam Into History, York, PA. Both the railroad and trail are thriving. Does anyone have contact information, particularly E-mail or P.O. box? I'll be the next one to calmly throw these jokers some facts and I'll post the results.

Despite having mentioned the WMSR's being able to get along with most trail people today, I wouldn't bother doing anything with this or any other New York trail group. Like Chester A. Riley in the old radio show "The Life of Riley," they can say "My head's made up!"

I'm also a member of another Facebook group, and a member there posted some comment, and it was deleted within a couple of hours or so. A number of other rail supporters had their comments deleted as well.

Dealing with these "extremists"--and I am not using that word lightly--will take stronger measures than discussions here and attempting to sway their opinions on what amount to propaganda Facebook pages that do not allow dissenting voices, even from people who are strong trail supporters.

This is exactly what happened to Michael Helbing, who runs a trail group called Metrotrails in New Jersey. Mr. Helbing posted some comments about how to have rails and trails together on the Catskill Mountain on the trail group's page--had photos and documentation of how it could be done, indeed was done in other places--and he got deleted.

http://www.metrotrails.org/Metrotrails/Home.html

https://www.facebook.com/metrotrails

This tells us a great deal about the people we are going to have to go against.

joe6167 · **Posted:** Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:04 am

Railway right-of-ways are interesting because they tend to be isolated enclaves of nature, and make a nice escape even in the middle of a city.

That being said, even when exploring railway lines in an urban environment, I often worry about crossing paths with a coyote or skunk or any of the other animals that like to hang out around train tracks. On one occasion I almost got into a confrontation with an adolescent Canada Goose! They are nasty little buggers.

With that in mind, what happens when someone hiking the hypothetical Catskills Mountain Trail gets eaten by a bear?

Chris Webster · **Joined:** Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am **Posts:** 575

A June 28, 2015 editorial in the Utica, NY Observer-Dispatch newspaper: State 'compromise' on Adirondack railroad on wrong track

An excerpt:

Quote:

The state’s compromise: Extend train service from Big Moose to Tupper Lake — 45 miles — and convert the 34-mile stretch from Tupper Lake to Lake Placid to recreational trail.

All due respect to Tupper Lake, but it’s no Lake Placid. It’s beautiful country, but with the exception of the 81-acre Wild Center — granted, that’s a wonderful exception — there’s little here to bring in trainloads of tourists. To terminate a rail run from Utica here would hardly have the draw that the internationally known Olympic village would have.

Rail advocates claim completing the run to Lake Placid would be a huge tourist draw for Amtrak riders who could connect to the Adirondack line in Utica. But trail supporters say that would be a bad investment, and that a recreational trail would serve far more people. They say it would open one of the most remote wilderness areas in the Northeast to thousands, and that would have a significant impact on the economy.

Those same people — and many others — could have that same access by leaving the rail intact. In fact, people with disabilities, the elderly, very young children and others could never experience such a rugged wilderness by trail. In many spots, there is not even cell phone service and it is many miles through thick forest to the nearest road. A hiker or biker who experiences a serious medical issue here would have a very difficult time getting out safely.

David Notarius · **Posted:** Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:14 am

Hi Guys;
Well Gee wiz, I can't seem to find the Upper Hudson Rail Trail Facebook page! I wonder if either they decided there was too much flack to deal with or just banned me for my " disingenuous and diversionary" comment? I am a bicycle riding, tax paying - voting American (yup!) currently living in the Cambridgeshire Fennlands of the UK, who believes in open debate and freedom of speech. I believe it is important to open a dialogue with the trail people. Both the Railway Preservation World & the Trail People want to protect rights of way. It is possible to work together and share this resource.To loosely quote the great late Lyndon Johnson, " ....in a rain storm, it's better to have your enemies inside your tent "weeing" out then outside "weeing" in.....". The railroads and their rights of way are a national asset! They need to be protected not destroyed. So as an American, I still take an active role in the "affairs" that have and will effect our future of our country. Hope no one else mistake my Tic Tac as a"Poison Pill". David Notarius, Wimblington UK, ex New Hope PA, USA

PS, Has anyone started a Trails to Rails lobbyist group yet?

J3a-614 · **Posted:** Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:49 pm

General Upper Hudson link:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Upper-Hu ... 37?fref=nf

You're still there--just have to scroll down to the topic in question.

And there was and is a group that says it can be done--but its efforts, representing who knows how many hundreds of hours of work, were just discarded.

http://www.trailswithrails.org/

David Notarius · **Posted:** Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:47 am

Howdy Folks; I think I've been banned, this is what happens when I try to go their page:

No results for https://www.facebook.com/pages/Upper-Hu ... 37?fref=nf

Are afraid of little old me? Have fun - Dave

jefalcsik · **Joined:** Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:42 am **Posts:** 84

David Notarius wrote:

Howdy Folks; I think I've been banned, this is what happens when I try to go their page:

No results for https://www.facebook.com/pages/Upper-Hu ... 37?fref=nf

Are afraid of little old me? Have fun - Dave

I had made two posts on their page prior to Davids and was subsequently blocked and comments scrubbed by Curt Austin. I wrote to their "Contact" and asked why opposing views were blocked on a Facebook Page that is administrated by a tax-exempt entity. I at least received two private exchanges with Mr. Austin. He does not appreciate railroad supporters spoiling their good news or mission plans.

Jim

daylight4449 · **Posted:** Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:55 am

jefalcsik wrote:

David Notarius wrote:

Howdy Folks; I think I've been banned, this is what happens when I try to go their page:

No results for https://www.facebook.com/pages/Upper-Hu ... 37?fref=nf

Are afraid of little old me? Have fun - Dave

I had made two posts on their page prior to Davids and was subsequently blocked and comments scrubbed by Curt Austin. I wrote to their "Contact" and asked why opposing views were blocked on a Facebook Page that is administrated by a tax-exempt entity. I at least received two private exchanges with Mr. Austin. He does not appreciate railroad supporters spoiling their good news or mission plans.

Jim

Well then let's spoil it! As far as I'm concerned, the preservation community as a whole has been far to nice to some of these hyper-aggressive trail groups. These people smear any idea of middle ground approaches and attack those who suggest them. The fact of the matter is that the general public doesn't see how these people react to other viewpoints because they censor the opposition. My solution is simple; we play the same game that these trail groups are playing and try to show the public the uncivilized and savage behavior that some of these groups use to further their means. We propose a middle ground, they smear it and the proposer, we save copies. If they send messages or emails of an aggressive nature, save them. Eventually these trail groups will give enough ammo that we could successfully torpedo their "our-way-or-the-highway" method of attack and show the public that some of these trail groups are collections of pure scum. At this point we can't have anything less.

...Now if everyone would excuse me, I'm going to go find my flak jacket now.

Adirondack RR: NY State wants to rip up 34 miles of track

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