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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR: NY State wants to rip up 34 miles of trac
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:26 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
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Location: Baltimore, MD
You can add me and David Notarious to the apparently growing list of people whose comments get deleted from that FB page.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR: NY State wants to rip up 34 miles of trac
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:06 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 895
Quote:
This is exactly what happened to Michael Helbing, who runs a trail group called Metrotrails in New Jersey. Mr. Helbing posted some comments about how to have rails and trails together on the Catskill Mountain on the trail group's page--had photos and documentation of how it could be done, indeed was done in other places--and he got deleted.


https://www.facebook.com/metrotrails

This tells us a great deal about the people we are going to have to go against.


Then why is it when I actually go to the Facebook page, almost the first thing I see is this:

https://www.facebook.com/metrotrails/videos/vb.169631143073432/852179421485264/?type=2&theater

which does not have negative comments I can see. (But does have 16 likes and 2 shares)

And that is scary fast for a steam locomotive in proximity to a trail, let alone what would be involved with cylinder cocks...

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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR: NY State wants to rip up 34 miles of trac
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:26 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:42 am
Posts: 84
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
You can add me and David Notarious to the apparently growing list of people whose comments get deleted from that FB page.


The Upper Hudson Rail-Trail Group is a 501(c)3 and their info is on the following link:

http://www.upperhudson.org/Upper_Hudson ... About.html

I sent a direct email to their contact link and received a polite but terse reaming out for making their business my business.

I think since the feds have graciously extended tax exempt status to this organization, comments of the opposite view, if presented in a respectful manner, should be received. I wanted to share some data about Damascus, VA, on the Virginia Creeper Trail their members might be interested in. Obviously the moderator feels otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR: NY State wants to rip up 34 miles of trac
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:35 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 895
Curt Austin certainly doesn't seem too fond of 'rail fans', does he? But elsewhere he appears to be saying North Creek will be more of a 'draw' served by both rail and a 'bike trail', which leads me to think he is not 'anti-railroad', just not interested in rail-with-trail on a 10' bed width.

Perhaps part of the Facebook page being down (or default-restricted to a large number of people finding the site via Google) is this, from the upperhudson.org site:

Quote:
So, our effort at this point is to keep the idea alive, maintain a formal organization that can take action, and be prepared for the next opportunity. Trail projects often spend a lot of time in this sort of situation, with an uncertain outcome. In our case, given recent events, we’ll have to wait, but we don’t have the uncertainty - this corridor will become a trail someday.


This referring to what happens in 2062, or when the rail operation abandons the service. And it is not 'getting rid of the railroad' they're discussing; it's preventing the land from reverting to adjacent owners, or falling into 'forever wild' land, instead of being preserved for trail use under the Rail Banking legislation...

... or so they themselves say.

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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR: NY State wants to rip up 34 miles of trac
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:43 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:42 am
Posts: 84
One thing about the Upper Hudson group, their situation is a little different. The railroad owns the ROW. A legitimate rail-trail conversion (if there is such a thing) would follow abandonment and railbanking status. That appears to be what they advocate.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR: NY State wants to rip up 34 miles of trac
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:26 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3030
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Overmod wrote:
Quote:
This is exactly what happened to Michael Helbing, who runs a trail group called Metrotrails in New Jersey. Mr. Helbing posted some comments about how to have rails and trails together on the Catskill Mountain on the trail group's page--had photos and documentation of how it could be done, indeed was done in other places--and he got deleted.


https://www.facebook.com/metrotrails

This tells us a great deal about the people we are going to have to go against.


Then why is it when I actually go to the Facebook page, almost the first thing I see is this:

https://www.facebook.com/metrotrails/videos/vb.169631143073432/852179421485264/?type=2&theater

which does not have negative comments I can see. (But does have 16 likes and 2 shares)


This is exactly my point. Mr. Helbing isn't a problem; although a very strong trail supporter, he also is quite strong at drawing the line at tearing out an existing active or potentially active railroad. He spoke of this, about how the Catskill railroad people have a HUGE job on their hands (Helbing has had a hand in trail construction and maintenance, and understands the work better than some), and about how rail with trail could be accomplished, on a couple of pro-trail sites regarding the Catskill Mountain--and he got scrubbed off. The people I was saying would be a challenge to us are the "usual suspects" pushing the Catskill trail who not only can't stand us, but can't stand a strong trail man who says they are going too far.

Heck, maybe they even hate him worse than us for being a bit of an apostate, in their view anyway!


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR: NY State wants to rip up 34 miles of trac
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:36 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3030
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Overmod wrote:
And that is scary fast for a steam locomotive in proximity to a trail, let alone what would be involved with cylinder cocks...


Oh, I don't know about that. Western Maryland Scenic's 734 is no race horse, but the road doesn't dawdle, either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FE2Ixvt470g

And Northern Central (Steam Into History) doesn't seem to run unduly slowly, either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT2mYY4JrGY

Both roads run on former double tracked roads, with the trail occupying what used to be the second track.

And isn't there a rail trail in New England somewhere that's right next to the Northeast Corridor, with trains running past at over 100 mph?


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR: NY State wants to rip up 34 miles of trac
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:57 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3030
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Well, David's been wiped off the site, and you can't get into it unless you are signed into Facebook now.

In the meantime, there is this exchange taking the place of David's:

Rowan de la Barre That right of way would make a perfect trail due to the hard work volenteers at the railroad have put in. Thats is why is is a good idea to take ttacks from an active orginaxation rather than abonded railroads to mooch off all their hard work.
Like · Reply · July 1 at 2:28pm

Upper Hudson Rail Trail Sigh. Another distant railfan spreading misinformation. There has been no volunteerism involved in developing this corridor. The current operator is a global corporation. It's a straight-up business venture by two municipalities and Iowa Pacific.
Like · July 1 at 3:10pm

Rowan de la Barre Ah yes you are right I was mistakenly thinking about another railroad. So let me rephrase this. That right of way would make a perfect trail due to the investment the railroad has put in. Also I don't see a trail paying taxes and helping get trucks off the road. Also I am only 2 hours away so I am far from "distant."
Like · 14 hrs

Upper Hudson Rail Trail You are distant enough that you don't know the situation here. You are just repeating the standard talking points of rail fans, whether they apply to our situation or not - you don't care. They are mostly weak, anyway, such as the notion that trail users don't pay taxes, or that this should matter when it comes to publicly-owned facilities.

The big thing you are missing is that the railroad operator is losing a lot of money, and will either be gone next year, or proposing sharply reduced operations in Warren County. There's not much service now - you can't even buy a round trip ticket to Saratoga.
Like · 1 hr


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR: NY State wants to rip up 34 miles of trac
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:02 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3030
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
In fairness to Upper Hudson, they do have a kind of legitimate point about the cost of adding a parallel trail where the railroad is cut into the side of a hill:

Upper Hudson Rail Trail
June 28 at 1:04pm ·
The folks behind the Remsen-to-Lake Placid trail had to endure persistent suggestions to have both rail and trail, an idea finally laid to rest in the DEC/DOT report, supplemented by actual failed attempts. That conclusion applies to our corridor even more strongly. It's a matter of engineering, so we must get nerdy. Below is a drawing of a rail bed as it typically exists for our corridor. It depicts a side-hill situation since our corridor runs next to a river most of the time.

The mental image for most folks is that it's like adding a sidewalk to a street, but you can see how much $ digging would be required to widen the passage from 8 to 24 feet - 8 feet for the trail plus a safety margin (regulations probably require more). Side-hill railbeds get washed out without good drainage, so you must have a ditch and culverts. Lots of $ culverts.

But there's more – much more: Many small and some big streams run into the river, so numerous $$ bridges must be added. The Tahawus section alone has bridges 63, 61 and 52-feet long, plus many more, including the $$$$ 314-foot Hudson River bridge. Fill is required to get across low areas; lots of $$ new fill would be needed. Where the railway goes through a blasted rock cut, you must do a lot more $$ blasting to make room for a trail.

Even that's not all. It is legally impossible to make the Tahawus extension a rail-with-trail (long explanation deleted). Getting permits to do this work near protected rivers and wetlands, within the Blue Line - ouch.

In our terrain, for our corridor, rail-with-trail is an absolute deal killer.
Upper Hudson Rail Trail's photo.
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Upper Hudson Rail Trail Where rails-with-trails (both) exist, they usually use an old double-track corridor. Our corridor is single-track.
Like · Reply · June 30 at 12:58pm

Upper Hudson Rail Trail Carl Knoch of Rails to Trails Conservancy does not know of a rail-with-trail built on a single-track corridor in terrain like ours.
Like · Reply · July 1 at 7:16am

The photo, which I can't copy directly as the quotes above, is this cross section:

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hp ... e=5624A700


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR: NY State wants to rip up 34 miles of trac
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:11 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3030
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
I'm not going to reply directly to them--I want to be able to see what this outfit is up to.

But I can tell you a person they cite--Carl Knoch of Rails to Trails Conservancy--is either a fool or a liar. He claims he knows of no places where trails have been built along single track lines.

That's just not true.

http://www.americantrails.org/resources ... Trail.html

Granted, it's not that long, but it was done, and in terrain rougher than about anything in the east.

It's not the only one. This one is perhaps closest to what's going on in New York in terms of length and work--and it's apparently at least partially along an active, single track railroad:

http://www.railstotrails.org/trailblog/ ... ail-trail/

Here is the key:

Quote:
Grade: Built alongside a railroad, the trail will be relatively flat with the steepest section (at a grade of about five percent) occurring as the trail climbs Brotherton Mountain and diverts from the right-of-way.


Last edited by J3a-614 on Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR: NY State wants to rip up 34 miles of trac
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:45 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3030
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
I am finding it fascinating that the anti-rail people, both those who want our rights of way for trails, and those who are afraid of modern railroading, apparently cannot tolerate dissident posts on their own sites, even if said dissident posts are as polite as can be and can be absolutely confirmed in terms of factual content. I can personally say I am banned from the anti-Florida sites shown, and it looks like I would be from the Aptos site, and certainly would be from Upper Hudson if they could figure out who I really am.

I guess sometimes a nom-de-plume is kind of handy!

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38250

Now, the question becomes, how do we deal with such people? There's no negotiating with them; if some of the commentary on those trail sites are any indication, they hate our guts! From them, I can honestly say, and for once I don't think the administrators will object to me saying it, "We don't get no respect, no respect at all!!"


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR: NY State wants to rip up 34 miles of trac
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:24 am 

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:07 pm
Posts: 964
Location: Leicester, MA.
J3a-614 wrote:
I am finding it fascinating that the anti-rail people, both those who want our rights of way for trails, and those who are afraid of modern railroading, apparently cannot tolerate dissident posts on their own sites, even if said dissident posts are as polite as can be and can be absolutely confirmed in terms of factual content. I can personally say I am banned from the anti-Florida sites shown, and it looks like I would be from the Aptos site, and certainly would be from Upper Hudson if they could figure out who I really am.

I guess sometimes a nom-de-plume is kind of handy!

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38250

Now, the question becomes, how do we deal with such people? There's no negotiating with them; if some of the commentary on those trail sites are any indication, they hate our guts! From them, I can honestly say, and for once I don't think the administrators will object to me saying it, "We don't get no respect, no respect at all!!"


I've said it once on how we deal with people like this;
daylight4449 wrote:
Well then let's spoil it! As far as I'm concerned, the preservation community as a whole has been far to nice to some of these hyper-aggressive trail groups. These people smear any idea of middle ground approaches and attack those who suggest them. The fact of the matter is that the general public doesn't see how these people react to other viewpoints because they censor the opposition. My solution is simple; we play the same game that these trail groups are playing and try to show the public the uncivilized and savage behavior that some of these groups use to further their means. We propose a middle ground, they smear it and the proposer, we save copies. If they send messages or emails of an aggressive nature, save them. Eventually these trail groups will give enough ammo that we could successfully torpedo their "our-way-or-the-highway" method of attack and show the public that some of these trail groups are collections of pure scum. At this point we can't have anything less.

...Now if everyone would excuse me, I'm going to go find my flak jacket now.


Just because we post copies of comments from their page doesn't mean anything... Like some of the "hippies" here in the Worcester area, they'll deny the comments and the censorship once there is no more evidence. Pictures are worth a thousand words, so there... Besides, they're posting their thoughts in a public forum, so cry me a river if they don't like getting called out for their tactics.

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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR: NY State wants to rip up 34 miles of trac
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:57 pm 
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So does this whole strech of railroad run through state owned land? If not it might be time to inform land owners about reclaming easements ;-)


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR: NY State wants to rip up 34 miles of trac
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:29 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
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Location: S.F. Bay Area
You can't win a war with these people at their level: hucking loose words around on the internet. what trumps it is real world actions: actual gladhanding with influencers, designing, and if possible, actual building. For instance it's easy to say "where the railroad has a cut, the trail will need one too $$$". Quite a different thing to show drawings of how the trail gently climbs over the cut to a scenic overlook.

Arguing on the internet wastes your time and annoys the pig, for a couple of reasons: first on Facebook they control the press. Second you're not arguing with people but rather egos. Know your enemy and don't become it. You can't win in their game.

The other thing is, don't treat online forum extremism as if it's actually a meaningful sample of the opposition's position. Those people are "wing nuts".


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR: NY State wants to rip up 34 miles of trac
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:01 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:42 am
Posts: 84
New York State gave Utica a hearing opportunity on the UMP amendment:

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.co ... 54381.html

July 20.


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