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 Post subject: Re: Age of Steam gets another one
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:34 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2435
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Only on RYPN could people complain, or "not get" that;

1. Locomotives are being acquired;
2. Said locomotives are being moved to a secure storage facility that is indoors, and better yet, built like a traditional steam era roundhouse, so they are displayed/stored in context;
3. Said locomotives are being acquired by an organization that wants to turn this into a long term, non-profit enterprise, and is building massive amounts of infrastructure to support it.

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 Post subject: Re: Age of Steam gets another one
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:01 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:58 am
Posts: 728
David, I hate "Like" buttons intensely, but if there was ever a reason to have one, it would be your comment.

"LIKE!"

Could there perhaps be a slight bit of envy creeping in, just because a man who built a railroad empire and became rich doing it, still loves trains enough to create an incredible home for so much equipment to live in?

JJJ, if you happen to read this, thank you for this example of preserving railroad history!

Steve Hunter


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 Post subject: Re: Age of Steam gets another one
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:10 pm 
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Location: Pac NW, via North Florida
...and only on RYPN would anyone not be able to understand concerns...
wilkinsd wrote:
3. Said locomotives are being acquired by an organization that wants to turn this into a long term, non-profit enterprise, and is building massive amounts of infrastructure to support it.
Paulson Spence and Dick Jensen (and a few others over the years) wanted a lot, too, and look what happened to the stuff they gathered.
There's a reason why people are asking the questions. I know of two (non-RR-related) projects similar to AOS, though not nearly as large in scope, where people with a lot of money put it into a museum and -go figure- the money didn't last forever and I found myself at an auction in each case, watching people pick over the remains like jackals in the wild after a kill.
If museums with the backing of numerous volunteers fold up over the long haul, asking questions about the long-term future of AOS (a project with the sole financial backing of one very rich person) is not only quite reasonable, it'd be downright insane not to even ask the question.
I get that he put a lot of cash into the initial expense of the land, infrastructure and equipment and has of course done an admirable job so far. yet, I'm still unclear how this place is supposed to generate the large amount money over time that it'll need for simple operating expenses for maintaining the track, buildings and keeping the lights on (not to mention restoration, rebuilding and operating steam locomotives) as it's clearly no museum or tourist attraction/railroad by any previously understood definition.

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Last edited by p51 on Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Age of Steam gets another one
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:18 pm 

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:08 pm
Posts: 252
Location: Amherst, Oh
The endowment is supposed to earn money, not necessarily the building/lands/equipment. He can do nothing with any of his physical assets and still make a killing based on interest from the endowment.

And it is a good thing in general if people are asking questions, just for the sanity of the community. I think people are/were semi-concerned about another situation like with the last two existing sharks. That doesn't seem to be Jerry's plan though.


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 Post subject: Re: Age of Steam gets another one
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:21 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 704
IMO, the comparison to Jensen is ridiculous. Jensen was perpetually broke and totally dependent on others to store his stuff. That ended up biting him. He meant well, and worked long and hard to make his dreams come true, but that is completely different from the AoS situation.

Spence intended to build a new railroad, and started gathering locomotives to power it. The road never got built, so the locos had no purpose for his estate.


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 Post subject: Re: Age of Steam gets another one
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:17 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2435
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
p51 wrote:
...and only on RYPN would anyone not be able to understand concerns...
wilkinsd wrote:
3. Said locomotives are being acquired by an organization that wants to turn this into a long term, non-profit enterprise, and is building massive amounts of infrastructure to support it.
Paulson Spence and Dick Jensen (and a few others over the years) wanted a lot, too, and look what happened to the stuff they gathered.
There's a reason why people are asking the questions. I know of two (non-RR-related) projects similar to AOS, though not nearly as large in scope, where people with a lot of money put it into a museum and -go figure- the money didn't last forever and I found myself at an auction in each case, watching people pick over the remains like jackals in the wild after a kill.
If museums with the backing of numerous volunteers fold up over the long haul, asking questions about the long-term future of AOS (a project with the sole financial backing of one very rich person) is not only quite reasonable, it'd be downright insane not to even ask the question.
I get that he put a lot of cash into the initial expense of the land, infrastructure and equipment and has of course done an admirable job so far. yet, I'm still unclear how this place is supposed to generate the large amount money over time that it'll need for simple operating expenses for maintaining the track, buildings and keeping the lights on (not to mention restoration, rebuilding and operating steam locomotives) as it's clearly no museum or tourist attraction/railroad by any previously understood definition.


I find your histronics on this subject to be somewhat confunding andamusings. JJJ/AOS doesn't have to answer to us or anyone. We aren't some sort of "court of railway preservation righteousness" that can somehow pass an enforceable judgment on the whole plan. The whole plan probably hasn't been revealed. There's nothing preventing volunteers, or seeking donations, etc., in the future.

At the end of the day, none of us, either as individuals (JJJ, WM303, etc) or as museums really "own" the artifacts. We are custodians, working to ensure that the artifacts are enjoyed by future generations. Sometimes that means we don't own something very long, or we care for it long enough to find a better home. I cannot think of a single piece of equipment in the AOS collection that was in a better home, or had a better outlook before it moved to the roundhouse.

If this is just a grand failure after 20-30 years, as you seemingly want this to be, and there is an auction, and the collection is scattered to better homes, it will be a failure, but also a success, as several of the locomotives may not have still been with us, or in that good of shape had they not been part of the AOS collection.

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 Post subject: Re: Age of Steam gets another one
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:44 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:20 pm
Posts: 125
I think AoS is great! If I had his money, I'd do the same thing! Would you really rather see M&NF #12 continue to rot away in Clearfield! I just hope that someday I can tour this facility and maybe shake Mr. Jacobson's hand and thank him for what he has accomplished.


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 Post subject: Re: Age of Steam gets another one
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:57 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:30 am
Posts: 84
I'm happy that Mr. Jacobson created the AOS and be able to save many of these important machines as he can I wonder is he adding more stalls to his roundhouse he'll need to add more to his collection. I wonder if he's interested in a logging mallet. in the pacific northwest there's one in WA but it's in peaces i think it's the Rayonier 38 I know it's not a mainline steam locomotive but still. I think it'll be a good fit for short line and tourist operations the drawback is it's not suited for Class 1 rails but it still needs better care than it is now. I still want to see 1293 6325 to run again those two and 1551 were the only OHCR steamers I seen to operate in person. that explains why I'm so into getting them back on the road.


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 Post subject: Re: Age of Steam gets another one
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:00 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:29 am
Posts: 42
Location: Michigan
This forum thread; and the ~simmered down~ thread of [U.P. Steam Shop status of fleet?] authenticates for me the passion,
and romance for "railroading" that remains very much alive today.

I genuinely enjoy reading all the views on so many of the passionate subjects posted here.

What a academia, wise and scholarly group! All of You deserve recognition for your contribution(s) here.

You folks are by far, the most experienced ~gathering~ of people writing about what you think... on a forum... I've stumbled upon.
(And no, I don't have boots on ;)

The conversations we're all reading about here, have also rekindled (for me) the age old answer to how one gathers,
and gets to the root of any subject matter we're needing to know more about.

One has to actually step away from their comfort zone (in this instance) their computer screen, and go out into the real world,
and get to the facts they are looking for.

A phone call, an email, a letter, or better yet; an actual visit to a location to gather the most updated, useful information is... by far,
the most productive means of getting to the root, of what you/we seek.

Yes, I'm still curious about the stenciled DT&I tender trailing the Sturm & Dillard 105 steam locomotive.

Am I curious enough to go directly to the Age of Steam location and find out about it?

Well... stranger things have happened. ~smiling~~~

A Student of Observation, and totally enjoying the thinking going on here.

John


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 Post subject: Re: Age of Steam gets another one
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:58 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1031
Location: Youngstown, OH
wilkinsd wrote:

I find your histronics on this subject to be somewhat confunding and amusings. JJJ/AOS doesn't have to answer to us or anyone. We aren't some sort of "court of railway preservation righteousness" that can somehow pass an enforceable judgment on the whole plan. The whole plan probably hasn't been revealed. There's nothing preventing volunteers, or seeking donations, etc., in the future.

At the end of the day, none of us, either as individuals (JJJ, WM303, etc) or as museums really "own" the artifacts. We are custodians, working to ensure that the artifacts are enjoyed by future generations. Sometimes that means we don't own something very long, or we care for it long enough to find a better home. I cannot think of a single piece of equipment in the AOS collection that was in a better home, or had a better outlook before it moved to the roundhouse.



You just made two conflicting statements. Does AOS hold absolute title to the equipment and answers to no one, or are they mere custodians of historic equipment held in the "public trust"?

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 Post subject: Re: Age of Steam gets another one
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:17 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 3:07 pm
Posts: 637
Who "owns" Jerry's collection? That should depend on whether title is held by him personally or by the foundation he has formed. And does that foundation meet all the requirements of an IRS 501(c)3 "charitable and educational" organization?

By law, anything in possession of a 501(c)3 is being held in trust for the public, the reward for which is being tax-exempt.


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 Post subject: Re: Age of Steam gets another one
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:42 am 

Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:07 pm
Posts: 186
I'm not a lawyer and don't even play one on TV. But I understand Mr. Jacobson has an established record as an astute businessman, and I trust that he knows a few good lawyers who can take care of the legal details to develop this facility so that it will last far beyond his time on earth. We've seen people with big dreams before, and we've seen people with lots of money before. This is the first time we've seen somebody who has the dreams, the money, the resources, and the knowledge, to put it all together in such a way that it has a secure future. I don't see why I should need to know the details because I feel comfortable leaving them up to him. So far he's done just fine without my "expert" business/legal advice.

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: Age of Steam gets another one
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:54 am 

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Last edited by rock island lines on Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Age of Steam gets another one
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:02 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:34 pm
Posts: 601
Tom Davidson I think you kind of nailed it. Kind of nice to read most of this, even some of the things I question. But in the end I think you nailed it pretty good. Think sometimes "musings" might be mistook for opinions and criticism. Sometimes it very well might be opinions and criticism? But I am with Tom on this one. I think AOS is on the way to PA where half of my "bucket list" of places to see are located. I hope someday to get there. That place is a dream to me. I am grateful that JJ has chosen to do what he is doing. I too will leave the details up to him on what to do with his organization. Cheers, John.


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 Post subject: Re: Age of Steam gets another one
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:39 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2435
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Hot Metal wrote:
You just made two conflicting statements. Does AOS hold absolute title to the equipment and answers to no one, or are they mere custodians of historic equipment held in the "public trust"?


I don't speak for AOS (you know that), so maybe you should ask them.

What I do know is that there is a company, named Age of Steam, LTD which is incorproated in Ohio as a FOR PROFIT company. AOS, LTD also registered Age of Steam and Age of Steam Roundhouse as trade names.

What I also know is that there is a Jerry and Laura Jacobson Foundation listed as a NON profit organization in Ohio. Their most recent IRS Form 990 is attached. It lists "gifts" to the foundation of several locomotives.

My guess is that JJJ is buying and gifting, and gifting already owned locomotives to the foundation as his plans progress.

Also, being held in the public trust doesn't mean you, as a member of the public, get to see everything in the collection, all of the time. You couldn't go see the Getty collection when they were building the new Getty Museum in California several years ago. The Met won't let you rummage through the basement. There was an art museum in suburban Philadelphia that for years was available by appointment only, until they moved the collection. In other words, holding for the public trust doesn't mean you get 24/7 unfettered access to a collection or site.

My guess, and it is an eduated one, but still a guess, is that given all of the construction on the site, over the past several years, the foundation has been wary to allow visitors. However, by their own statements, tours will soon be allowed, as they've built the depot-like building as a base for tours of the site.

My other educated guess is that the for-profit companies will eventually become a non-profit entity when construction is completed, with the foundation taking a role. It appears that the foundation has significant assets, with over $2mm in donations for the tax year 2013, though most of that appears to be in the form of steam locomotives.


Attachments:
Age of Steam Tradename.pdf [281.62 KiB]
Downloaded 32 times
Age of Steam Roundhouse.pdf [312.68 KiB]
Downloaded 36 times
Age of Steam Incorporation Information.pdf [205.22 KiB]
Downloaded 34 times

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