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 Post subject: Re: NdeM 3028 Status?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:12 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:16 am
Posts: 467
Location: Northern Illinois
[quote="QJdriver"]Likewise, one of those N,C,& St L engines (isn't there one in the park in Nashville we could have) would be perfect for making a similar fake NdeM engine, I might be able to find an extra NdeM tender in Mexico for the puropose. (Steam engines are covered under national patrimony statutes, but the tenders aren't). With one phone call I can get you a Mexican whistle....

We have feelings, too. We will support restoring our Niagara any way we can if given the opportunity, I've waited since 1966 for that. What we are not enthused about is a CB&Q 4960 style makeover, and we won't contribute to that kind of restoration. Of course, the person (corporations are people, my friend) with the most money always gets his way.

I (but not necessarily all the other Niagaraholics) understand that anybody who takes responsibility, does all the work, coughs up the cash to put Humpty Dumpty back together again, and pays her fuel oil bill, will most likely want to paint their name on the tender while she earns her keep. Of couse that's reasonable, and any other kind of disguise for her that doesn't involve any actual permanant alterations to her design seems harmless to me. It seems like she was dolled up as a D&H engine for a movie if I recall, why not let the D&H fans have their fun ??? TSRR 500 is still AT&SF 1316 under the green paint and prettty yellow stripes, but she might be getting pretty scuzzy if she were still in the park.

The thing is, why not let NdeM fans have at least one restoration for our favorite road ??? There is a wonderful variety of steam power restored for the American and Canadian roads, and many more fine examples which ought to be restored (and would be in a perfect world). Made in USA steam truly conquered the world, we are the first to say so. QR-1s were the last example in North America of working mainline big MADE IN USA steam, and at the time the NdeM was the biggest railroad in the North American rail net.

For the third time in this thread, we want to help if our help is wanted.

VIVA NdeM 3028 !!!![/quote]


I share Sammy's assessment of potentially butchering a NdeM 4-8-4 to make it something it isn't/wasn't. My distaste for altering any locomotive into something it never was mirror's his lack of tolerance for such imposters.

My trip to Mexico in the summer of 1966 to witness the last of the NdeM narrow gauge 2-8-0s in service and the final North American stand of mainline steam, the QR1 4-8-4s, occurred within weeks of Sammy's visit the same summer. Two of my closest personal friends were able to make a similar trip to Mexico over Christmas 1966 to pay a final visit to the 4-8-4s. The three of us are still alive but are in our early to mid sixties now so the number of us who were able to enjoy these engines in regular service are dwindling in number. It would be a shame to ignore the history of these American-built (Alco and Baldwin) locomotives just because those who knew the locomotive have mostly passed along. I know that Greg Scholl also had the opportunity to accompany the late John Vickers to Mexico to watch and photograph these machines. What say you, Greg?

My first steam locomotive cab ride was aboard NdeM 3034 at Tula which was located about 80 km north of Mexico City. John and I drove into Tula from Mexico City in a rented VW "beetle" and encountered a heavy downpour about dusk. 3034 was in the process of doubling the first eight cars of a sixteen car freight train up the hill out of Tula on the very steep line to Teocalco. We reached the siding at the top of the hill and watched as the crew tied down the cars and cut the 4-8-4 away from them. The crew then furiously waved us aboard before backing light down the hill for the second cut. After tying onto the remaining cars, 3034 marched up the grade on the wet rails to the passing track where she re-assembled her train and headed towards Teocalco. Of course, this encounter with 3034 has forever made the QR1s one of my favorite class of locomotives. In concert with Sammy, I say leaving 3028 as a NdeM locomotive is the right thing to do.

Don C.


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 Post subject: Re: NdeM 3028 Status?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:18 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 4:00 am
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Location: Philadelphia, Pa.
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The thing is, why not let NdeM fans have at least one restoration for our favorite road ???


What's stopping them? There are quite a bunch of these locomotives in existence. How did this thing end up in New Hope anyway?


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 Post subject: Re: NdeM 3028 Status?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:20 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 4:00 am
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Location: Philadelphia, Pa.
...and furthermore? Why is this specific locomotive the last bastion of hope for NdeM fans? Why a locomotive that's been sitting torn apart in a less than ideal climate for many years so desirable? I'm not trying to bash anybody but there are quite a few examples of this class of locomotive in Mexico that aren't scattered all over a shop area and have been stored in a much drier climate since retirement.


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 Post subject: Re: NdeM 3028 Status?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:04 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:05 am
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It should have been left at the fair grounds under cover until the funds were raised for the rebuild.


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 Post subject: Re: NdeM 3028 Status?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:10 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:20 pm
Posts: 455
QJdriver wrote:
...
The thing is, why not let NdeM fans have at least one restoration for our favorite road ??? There is a wonderful variety of steam power restored for the American and Canadian roads, and many more fine examples which ought to be restored (and would be in a perfect world). Made in USA steam truly conquered the world, we are the first to say so. QR-1s were the last example in North America of working mainline big MADE IN USA steam, and at the time the NdeM was the biggest railroad in the North American rail net.

For the third time in this thread, we want to help if our help is wanted.

VIVA NdeM 3028 !!!!

A restoration to N de M appearance is a nice idea. Is there a group with the mission statement and the means to do it?

And I'll copy the question that opened this thread:
"Does anyone know the current status of NdeM 4-8-4 3028 on the New Hope & Ivyland?"


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 Post subject: Re: NdeM 3028 Status?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:39 am 

Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 611
Location: Bucks County, PA
rock island lines wrote:
QJdriver wrote:
...
The thing is, why not let NdeM fans have at least one restoration for our favorite road ??? There is a wonderful variety of steam power restored for the American and Canadian roads, and many more fine examples which ought to be restored (and would be in a perfect world). Made in USA steam truly conquered the world, we are the first to say so. QR-1s were the last example in North America of working mainline big MADE IN USA steam, and at the time the NdeM was the biggest railroad in the North American rail net.

For the third time in this thread, we want to help if our help is wanted.

VIVA NdeM 3028 !!!!

A restoration to N de M appearance is a nice idea. Is there a group with the mission statement and the means to do it?

And I'll copy the question that opened this thread:
"Does anyone know the current status of NdeM 4-8-4 3028 on the New Hope & Ivyland?"


I can temporarily answer that by giving you this update, as told to me by one of their crew members on a recent visit (which I have heard elsewhere as well) - right now, the small shop forces are concentrating on getting their passenger car fleet either refurbished, restored, or repaired...they may have an opportunity to work on 2-8-0 #40 and have her operational for this year's Christmas trains, but that is not a guarantee - it depends on where they are with the passenger cars at that time.

Based off of that information, #3028 will probably not see any work done to her for a while in New Hope - that is my guess. The shop forces are busy elsewhere at the moment.

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 Post subject: Re: NdeM 3028 Status?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 5:32 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:20 pm
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Gosh, photographer Ron Wright took some good photos in Mexico in the 60's.

Mexico City. December, 1960.
Image

Valle de Mexico. December, 1960.
Image

Ron Wright's web site:
http://www.rwrightrr.com/photos/pbr.asp?road=NDEM


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 Post subject: Re: NdeM 3028 Status?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:11 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:20 pm
Posts: 455
QJdriver wrote:
Besides the 3028 in the USA, there are 16 Niagaras left in Mexico, most look pretty scuzzy and are missing lots of parts. Two happy exceptions to this are the 3034 in Puebla, and the 3038 in Mexico City, both complete, but in need of new tubes. Best of luck with the 3028, I sure hope when she is finished I can see her run again, and I know Mr. Rowland and friends will like her once they get to try her.

VIVA VAPOR MEXICANO


Given what Sammy says above about other QR-1 Niagaras still in storage in Mexico, maybe a worthwhile project would be for a group to purchase one for a fitting US museum like the Pacific Southwest Railway Museum. Wouldn't that be a nice home for one!

But I guess the question is, have those survivors been sent to steel recyclers yet?


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 Post subject: Re: NdeM 3028 Status?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:32 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
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Location: Baltimore, MD
The reality is that both SteamLocomotive.com and .info identify twelve NdeM survivors, not sixteen, including 3028, leaving eleven south of the border. Of these, the .info page identifies two as "stored," one supposedly in a scrapyard in Huehuetoca and one on a siding in Tequisquiapan. The other nine are classic "stuffed and mounted" preservation examples.

If Brother King knows of others, let him speak up.

Meanwhile, I would suggest that any efforts to "repatriate" a Mexican 4-8-4 would be best left to folks like JJJ (who already has a closely-matching 4-8-4) or someone with a commercial need for one (read: no one), while we focus on Cuban survivors......


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 Post subject: Re: NdeM 3028 Status?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:29 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:48 am
Posts: 456
Location: Byers, Colorado
I've been awful busy this week doing useful work for a change, and I'm still behind, so I will need a bit of time to check and see about that 12 vs 16 count. These engines have been shuffled around a bit in the last few years.

BUT, while I agree that getting one of those 11 or 15 and fixing her up in the USA is a great idea, I'll go on record right now and say it will never happen. I'd love to be wrong about this.

If I may make a suggestion, it is to support restoring the one we have here when it becomes clear how best to do so. Joining the ALCO Historical & Technical Society, and contributing some drawings is all I've done so far. We need everybody who is interested to never say never.

As for going to the metal recyclers, the answer is, for all except the 3034 and 3038, not all at once...

Thanks very much for your interest.

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 Post subject: Re: NdeM 3028 Status?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:18 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:20 pm
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QJdriver,
Thank you for the post, though I found it uncharacteristically downbeat for Mr. QJdriver!

As a 17-year-old, I negotiated with three different railroad companies to get some pretty massive signaling apparatus. Cranes and flat-beds were involved. It was a blast. I could have kept going but I didn't own any property to store it all!

The only reason an N. de M. locomotive will not be repatriated to the US is that no one is willing to make the effort. Those of us who like to deal with people and railroads know that things like this are very possible. Never say it will never happen.

Viva Coronet Phosphate Numero Seis!

Viva la steam revolución!

* the crowd goes wild *


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 Post subject: Re: NdeM 3028 Status?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:26 am 

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We have one. It's in Pennsylvania. Nobody has built a business plan to present to the NH&I demonstrating why it would be worthwhile to rebuild it and put it into service. Solve that problem and then worry about creating a need for trying to repatriate another.

dave

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 Post subject: Re: NdeM 3028 Status?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:16 am 

Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:30 am
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I know about this topic but if NH&I have no plans for 3028 why not try to sell her to the Age of Steam in Ohio can be an option. Who has a plan for her I say why not


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 Post subject: Re: NdeM 3028 Status?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:39 pm 
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Dave wrote:
We have one. It's in Pennsylvania. Nobody has built a business plan to present to the NH&I demonstrating why it would be worthwhile to rebuild it and put it into service. Solve that problem and then worry about creating a need for trying to repatriate another.
Makes sense to me.
I have never understood why people always seem so motivated to go after steam 'somewhere else' (as if you're not going to have to rebuild it, regardless where it came from) when there are locomotives relatively nearby needing work. I guess it's the eternal appeal of the 'low starting cost' and short-term thinking that somehow, getting one locomotive a little cheaper than another will somehow translate to a lower overall cost. Most of us, deep down, know that is hardly ever the case, yet you keep hearing of those musing over bringing a loco from far away when there's probably one across town they could get for the same money and effort if they really looked into it...

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 Post subject: Re: NdeM 3028 Status?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:54 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:41 pm
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Location: Minneapolis, MN
Once again folks are ignoring the fact that even if they have a large steam locomotive ready to go, there are only a few railroads willing to host big iron. NS is hosting steam ONLY because it has learned that they can trust the organizations (TVRM, FWRHS and the VMT) operating the locomotives. And given the troubles that SOU630 had, that trust has to be earned. Up here in Minneapolis, the BNSF trusts Mr. Sandburg enough to allow his Milw 261 on its rails. But it takes years to develop the relationship with the railroad and to develop that trust. And there are railroads that will probably NEVER host a steam locomotive (CSX, CP, CN and WATCO come to mind), regardless of who operates it.

Given the current regulatory environment and the high cost of a restoration to operation, unless successful negotiations with a host railroad are likely to happen early in the 1472 service day window it makes no economic sense to spend $1,000,000 or more to restore a mainline steamer to operation. Stuffed and mounted should be the primary preservation goal.


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