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 Post subject: Re: Go Fund (That's not) me!?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:26 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 2431
superheater wrote:
The ugly reality of this is that money is required and will be required and if you can't raise $400, you can't hope to raise the money necessary to acquire, transport, store and maintain a locomotive. $400 is a drop in the bucket compared to the ultimate total cost.

I believe it was stated before, the time spent promoting this as a single-item phantom organization would better be spent persuading an existing organization to acquire an F40.


What he said! Let's do a thought experiment. Tomorrow Amtrak calls you and says "We've got this F40 we had hidden in a barn. It's in perfect condition and it's yours, where do you want it delivered?"

Where would you put it? Where would it be stored? Indoors or outdoors? How much will storage cost? How much is insurance?

Why does JJ have the AOS roundhouse and the rest of us don't? Simple, for him $400 is probably smaller than the rounding error on his balance sheet.

I'm not saying it's not a worthy cause. I am saying that if $400 to legally establish your organization is an insurmountable goal, then the other, much larger, financial hurdles will be even more challenging.

Partnering with an existing and established museum could help you with those cost and requirements. They may already have track for storage and have insurance. They could have a shop for repairs and maintenance. They might have members knowledgeable in the craft. This isn't something you acquire and put on a shelf and forget. If you think a boat is a hole in the water you pour money into, try a locomotive. Steamers run on cubic dollar bills, and diesels are cheaper, but not cheap.


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 Post subject: Re: Go Fund (That's not) me!?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:34 pm 
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Location: MA
cnj1524 wrote:
Which specific F40 are you trying to preserve??

We are trying to get one from the MBTA which is retiring them. As for where they will be stored most likely a cretin traction museum in western Massachusetts that is connected to a main line railroad, for there part they don't officially want to commit to anything until I have a locomotive lined up but have shown they would be willing to work with me. Also the $400 may come sooner rather than later it is just things move slowly for this organization.


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 Post subject: Re: Go Fund (That's not) me!?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:58 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8353
Location: Baltimore, MD
Not that I think anyone's going to step forward offering an F40PH out of the blue to some relatively unknown "group"...........

..... but I will propose that IF such an offer were made in a more realistic fashion ("You have 90 days to collect it, as is, where is anywhere where we can deliver it, and must confirm 501(c)3 status when approved or else..."), then more concrete and substantive offers--of cash, of logistics, of expertise--would be forthcoming.

This is like lifting a reserve at an auction. Once you confirm that it's GONNA HAPPEN, and how and in what form, and it passes the "smell test," THEN out come the checkbooks, the Kickstarter pledges, the container of spares someone has been stashing, etc.

The hard part, of course, is getting an F40PH owner to take you seriously. That's where you find someone "politically" astute--someone who is a salesman of ideas, on a professional level.


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 Post subject: Re: Go Fund (That's not) me!?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:04 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 1733
"Not that I think anyone's going to step forward offering an F40PH out of the blue to some relatively unknown "group""


In addition to the fact that RCD is looking to approach the MBTA.

The MBTA is a governmental body, with political animals running it.

http://www.mbta.com/about_the_mbta/leadership/

It appears that its operations have enough of the Mass. Governor's attention that the following is ongoing:

http://www.mbta.com/about_the_mbta/MBTABackOnTrack/

The money part:


"From a press conference at the State House, the Baker Administration and members of the panel announced a summary of key findings and proposed recommendations for short and long term reforms centered on a fiscal management control board:

Key Findings:
•Unsustainable Operating Budget: The MBTA would be insolvent if not for continuing and increasing subsidies due to a severe imbalance between costs and revenue.
•Chronic Capital Underinvestment: The MBTA has not spent the capital funds already available to it, resulting in chronic underinvestment in the aging fleet and infrastructure.
•Bottleneck Project Delivery: The MBTA struggles to get projects completed.
•Ineffective Workplace Practices: The MBTA is ineffective at managing work due to weak workplace practices and chronic absenteeism.
•Shortsighted Expansion Program: MassDOT and the MBTA lack a long-range expansion strategy shaped around the physical and financial capacity of the MBTA and future needs for regional transit.
•Organizational Instability: The MBTA is hampered by frequent leadership changes, vacancies, and looming attrition.
•Lack of Customer Focus: The MBTA is not organized to operate as a customer-oriented business.
•Flawed Contracting Process: The MBTA’s procurement and contract management is inefficient.
•Lack of Accountability: The Commonwealth provides more than half of the MBTA operating budget and additional funding for capital projects, but the MBTA is not accountable to the Governor or the Legislature.

Recommendations:

After considering a range of scenarios, the panel recommends creating a Fiscal and Management Control Board to enforce new oversight and management support, and increase accountability over a 3-5 year time frame. The goals will target governance, finance, agency structure and operations through recommended executive and legislative actions that embrace transparency and develop stability in order to earn public trust.
•New Fiscal and Management Oversight: Replace the current MassDOT Board with a five-member Fiscal and Management Control Board, with three members appointed by the Governor and one each nominated by the Speaker of the House and the Senate President. The Governor appoints a Chief Administrative Officer to lead the T, who reports to the Control Board.
•Capture Revenue Opportunities: Significantly increase MBTA self-generated revenue from fares, advertising and real estate, as well as through grants and federal programs.
•Budget Firewall: Build a firewall between the operating and capital budgets - construct one, five and twenty year plans for each.
•Capital Planning: Create a dedicated state-funded capital program to modernize vehicles and infrastructure and pause construction spending for system expansion (except for federally funded projects) until such a plan is in place.
•Customer Service: Create customer-oriented performance management and strengthen communications.
•Update System Routes: Rationalize and reform system routes, including buses."


Can you imagine the red tape and hi-level politicking involved in persuading these people to "donate" a locomotive (keep in mind, as a governmental entity, they don't pay income tax, so any donations will not even carry the benefit of a reduction in income tax, as would be the case for a private, taxable entity) and attempting to prove that this is a fiscally wise move when they are under some serious scrutiny.

I'm sorry but there's no way you are prying a locomotive from them unless you BUY it, and that brings us back to the problem of perennial impecuniousness.


Last edited by superheater on Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Go Fund (That's not) me!?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:08 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:54 am
Posts: 794
Location: NJ
"...a CRETIN traction museum"? My head hurts, reading this stuff over and over again. Lots of good advice has been offered in the past, why not take some of it?


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 Post subject: Re: Go Fund (That's not) me!?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:18 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 1733
" CRETIN traction museum"? My head hurts, reading this stuff over and over again. Lots of good advice has been offered in the past, why not take some of it?"

I'm sure I'll get skewered for saying it, but I simply can't fathom the constant misspelling coming from a self-identified college student-and that matters.

I hate to pee in somebody's Cheerios, but some times we have to be realistic and acknowledge our deficiencies and limits and not pursue quixotic quests because some well-meaning people accidentally encouraged us by withholding an honest assessment of our prospects in some endeavor for fear of injuring our ever-so-important feelings.

I'd love to buy a 25t GE and fix it up in the garage, but I have a mortgage and limited mechanical knowledge, so I get my fix in other ways.


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 Post subject: Re: Go Fund (That's not) me!?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:54 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8353
Location: Baltimore, MD
superheater wrote:
Can you imagine the red tape and hi-level politicking involved in persuading these people to "donate" a locomotive (keep in mind, as a governmental entity, they don't pay income tax, so any donations will not even carry the benefit of a reduction in income tax, as would be the case for a private, taxable entity) and attempting to prove that this is a fiscally wise move when they are under some serious scrutiny.


You know what? You're right.

But the OTHER reality is that politics makes strange bedfellows. The strategic political salesman can make a politician not only think that appropriating money into a seemingly "bottomless pit" is a good idea, but the politician will end up convinced it was HIS idea.

That's basically how we got Steamtown NHS, after all. And the California State RR Museum, the RR Museum of Pa., and the North Carolina Transportation Museum. And a host of other smaller, locally-subsidized rail museums/projects.

The CSRM, RR Museum of Pa., and NCTM each ended up with retired Amtrak locomotives that were essentially "inter-governmental-agency transfers" with a token $1 "sale". Before those, Amtrak doled out PRR GG1s for under scrap value ($5K when scrap value was $17K).

Having said that, the "game" will be vastly different for a private non-profit group wanting an F40PH, even with co-operative agents in Amtrak/VRE/MBTA/AMT/whoever. They will have to "prove themselves" with competent board members and a feasible strategic plan, plus have as part of their team the "schmoozers" and nattily-dressed wheeler-dealers who can "sell" the "good mission" behind a group like this.

This won't happen just to have one stuffed and mounted on a siding somewhere close to the "president's" house, however. A competent plan will have several of these "earning their keep," either as auxiliary power for someplace like the Grand Canyon Ry. or Western Md. Scenic RR, a start-up commuter demo project like Music City, etc. Go look at the several specific-class loco groups in Britain and Europe (and even Australia) for prototypes.


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 Post subject: Re: Go Fund (That's not) me!?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:50 pm 
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I have seen the MBTA give hundreds of thousands for a short tourist train. Also I have been down the road of looking for another organizations, in fact that was the first thing I did most were flat out not interested. The other reality is it is hard to get a locomotive if you have no place to put it, and it is hard to find a place to put a locomotive if you don't have a locomotive. Like I said before the Board of directors at this traction museum were very open to the idea but would not commit to anything until I had one lined up. As for what if Amtrak calls then I would contact the the president of said traction museum and work out the details, if that did not work out then I would contact a few other organizations.


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 Post subject: Re: Go Fund (That's not) me!?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:36 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:45 pm
Posts: 190
Location: Boyertown, PA
Just for the record, the funding campaign is now down. That puts an end to that.

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 Post subject: Re: Go Fund (That's not) me!?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:17 pm 

Joined: Thu May 21, 2015 9:33 am
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Here is an offer for you- IF you manage to get a locomotive donated to your "orginization", I will allow free storage on my line in SC. It might not be totally secure, but it will be looked in on daily.

Here's another carrot- if it isn't too far from operation, I will offer to lease it from the "orginization" for 5 years at a dollar a year. The payment will be you get returned a blue carded operational freshly painted in whatever amtrak scheme you desire locomotive...

I have made an offer of support. Will you now get serious about it? I.E. get the 501c3 done, get a board together, write articles and bylaws, and go find a locomotive.

Also, please proofread everything you ever write. I am a horrible speller but in this day and age there is no excuse for it. I still keep a well used Websters on my desk. Simple spelling errors can make people jump to conclusions about other parts of your work ethic and character.

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 Post subject: Re: Go Fund (That's not) me!?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:05 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:32 pm
Posts: 189
Here ya go.... Operational F40s for sale.

http://www.ozarkmountainrailcar.com/det ... ocomotives


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 Post subject: Re: Go Fund (That's not) me!?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:30 pm 
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airforcerail wrote:
Here is an offer for you- IF you manage to get a locomotive donated to your "orginization", I will allow free storage on my line in SC. It might not be totally secure, but it will be looked in on daily.

Here's another carrot- if it isn't too far from operation, I will offer to lease it from the "orginization" for 5 years at a dollar a year. The payment will be you get returned a blue carded operational freshly painted in whatever amtrak scheme you desire locomotive...

I have made an offer of support. Will you now get serious about it? I.E. get the 501c3 done, get a board together, write articles and bylaws, and go find a locomotive.

Also, please proofread everything you ever write. I am a horrible speller but in this day and age there is no excuse for it. I still keep a well used Websters on my desk. Simple spelling errors can make people jump to conclusions about other parts of your work ethic and character.

I may just take you up on that as you can see http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/CorpWeb/Cor ... RCH_TYPE=1 I already have a real orginazation with BOD bylaws and all.


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 Post subject: Re: Go Fund (That's not) me!?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:11 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:45 pm
Posts: 190
Location: Boyertown, PA
Quote:
I may just take you up on that as you can see http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/CorpWeb/Cor ... RCH_TYPE=1 I already have a real orginazation with BOD bylaws and all.

Interesting, would anyone else be interested in starting something of this nature for saving an AEM-7? Groups like this can be important to ensure the existance of at least one such engine from each class.

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 Post subject: Re: Go Fund (That's not) me!?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:10 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8353
Location: Baltimore, MD
Amtrak AEM-7 915 has already been transferred to the RR Museum of Pa. So that's already taken care of.

If anyone wants to go after a SEPTA or MARC AEM-7, propose a good home for it and get to work.

An Amtrak F40PH or three would be potentially usable nationwide. Not so an AEM-7.


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 Post subject: Re: Go Fund (That's not) me!?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:26 am 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
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Bump.

Can one of the accountants or lawyers here take a quick look at his Articles of Incorporation to check that everything there is 'as it should be' for his IRS application? It seems to me that all the necessary 'copypasta' is there (although I wish it weren't in ALL CAPS).

Would a Kickstarter or GoFundMe campaign specifically to raise the money for the nonprofit filing be in order? That would be a good 'dry run' to test different ways of tapping into an F40PH appreciation community, too.

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