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 Post subject: Re: Surviving NYC Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:58 pm 
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Thanks, B. Allan and Jerry, for the info and photos!

I wonder if the #2945 is one of the cars stored on the Morristown & Erie (there are several of these NYC 56 seat chairs stored at Cedar Knolls, and I don't think I've identified all of them. I'll do some looking tomorrow and see what I can find out.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving NYC Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:21 am 
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Morristown & Erie has at least 6 of these NYC 56 seat chairs, 3 of which I have not been able to identify:

#1003 Ash was built as NYC #2900, to PC, to Amtrak #5640, to Denver Railcar (DRCX) #5640 Ash (#800545) (intended as Silver Ash) to M&E #1003.

#1004 Elm was built as NYC #2901, to PC, to Amtrak #5641, to Denver Railcar (DRCX) #5641 Elm (#800546) (intended as Silver Elm) to M&E #1004.

#1007 Fir was built as NYC #2909, to PC, to Amtrak #5646, to Denver Railcar (DRCX) #5646 Fir (#800547) (intended as Silver Fir) to M&E #1007 and stored at Cedar Knolls.

The other 3 cars are also stored at Cedar Knolls: M&E #1008, #1009, and #1010.

I'm wondering if these were also acquired from Denver Railcar, or if one of them is the #2945. I'm also curious about the lack of car numbers #1005 and #1006 (additional cars?).

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving NYC Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:27 pm 
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Rainier Rails wrote:
Morristown & Erie has at least 6 of these NYC 56 seat chairs, 3 of which I have not been able to identify:

The other 3 cars are also stored at Cedar Knolls: M&E #1008, #1009, and #1010.

I'm wondering if these were also acquired from Denver Railcar, or if one of them is the #2945. I'm also curious about the lack of car numbers #1005 and #1006 (additional cars?).


After looking at photos and discussing it with Jerry, I've concluded that the #1008-#1010 were also acquired from Denver Railcar:

#1008 Oak was built as NYC #2937, to PC, to Amtrak #5660, to Denver Railcar (DRCX) #5660 Oak (#800548) (intended as Silver Oak) to M&E #1008.

#1009 Palm was built as NYC #2944, to PC, to Amtrak #5663, to Denver Railcar (DRCX) #5663 Palm (#800549) (intended as Silver Palm) to M&E #1009. It was 2 photographs of this car which confirmed my theory that the #1008-#1010 were ex-DRCX. At the non-vestibule end I noticed painted-over DRCX #5663 lettering, and seeing as how the M&E numbers were applied to the #1003, #1004, and #1007 in the order of the NYC, Amtrak, and #800xxx-series numbers, I decided this was enough evidence to conclude that the #1008 was the #2937/#5660 and the #1010 was the #2947/#5665. Like at least 1 other DRCX coach, the #1009 at some point was lettered in a faux-VIA scheme for a movie shoot.

#1010 Pine was built as NYC #2947, to PC, to Amtrak #5665, to Denver Railcar (DRCX) #5665 Pine (#800550) (intended as Silver Pine) to M&E #1010.

Here are the 2 photos of the #1009 which revealed the painted-over DRCX markings:

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1613330 (Brandon Kaback photo)

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2100464 (Eric Kreszl photo)

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving NYC Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:24 am 
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Over on pages #5 and #6 of the "Al Chione Slides" thread, murphycc and Topfuel have posted info on the 56 seat chairs which Conrail acquired from Amtrak in 1988: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37475&start=60

Topfuel wrote:
The 2 former B&O "Bird" series 16-4's and a fleet of former NYC Budd 56 seat coaches were also stored at the Reading shops during this time period after acquisition from Amtrak for a proposed steam program that never materialized after the death of Conrail CEO Dick Sanborn at the young age of 52.
murphycc wrote:
At that time, eleven coaches and the two sleepers showed up. The only one I didn't see was the 5667 which was already moved to the shops for conversion as Conrail 27 for the OCS fleet.

This line included the sleepers and 5649, 5650, 5652, 5657, 5666, 5670, 5671, 5676, 5678, 5684
Topfuel wrote:
The ex-NYC coaches and the 16-4's were acquired by Conrail directly from Amtrak, outside of Amtrak's normal sealed bid procedure.

When Sanborn died and the proposed steam program died with him, the coaches were put up for sale. I went to Reading and inspected the coaches and put in a bid for one. One or two had already been set aside for use by Conrail, and as I recall one or two more had already been sold to private parties. Around this time, VIA had started canvassing the US for good un-rebuilt steam heat/DC Budd built coaches for conversion to their HEP 1 and 2 program, and thus VIA ended up buying all of the remaining ex-NYC 1947 built Budd coaches from Conrail that were available.


Of these 11 coaches, 7 of the cars are listed by both Charlie and Terry Link's website:

#2919/#5652, now VIA #8136

#2948/#5666, now VIA #8137

#2949/#5667, to CR #27, now NS #26

#2954/#5670, now VIA #8138

#2916/#5676, now VIA #8139

#2925/#5678, now VIA #8141

#2945/#5684, to Ken Bitten, current status/location unknown

Charlie lists 4 cars which Link does not:

#2913/#5649, now VIA #8132

#2914/#5650, to Ken Bitten, now Cuyahoga Valley A.A. Augustus

#2930/#5657, currently in use on the Tioga Central as #2930--is this car actually owned by TIOC or by a private owner?

#2955/#5671, to unknown party, sold to KCS in 2004, converted to track inspection #1859 Arthur E. Stilwell

Link lists 2 cars which Charlie did not note as located in Reading. Were these 2 cars also acquired by Conrail but were not moved to the Reading shops?

#2922/#5653, now VIA #8133

#2926/#5655, now VIA #8144

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving NYC Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:15 am 
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As posted last Saturday, Dan Quiat has acquired 16-10 Slumbercoach #10380/#10817 Tonawanda Harbor (PC #4207/Amtrak #2005/HEP #2053), which was formerly owned by Colorado Railcar, and had been listed for sale on Ozark Mountain Railcar.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving NYC Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:37 pm 
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Part Two: Postwar Lightweights, Continued:

Diners:

Grill-Diners:

18 Cars, Budd, Lot #9644-004, 1948, NYC Lot #2178:

Ordered in March 1944 and delivered between March and May 1948. #450-#466 were built with 20 aisle-facing seats in the "grill" section at 8 tables, and 24 seats in a traditional dining section at 6 tables, while #467 was built for service on the Royal Palm (operated by SOU, FEC, L&N, and NYC) as a 32 seat diner (8 tables)-12 seat lounge (3 aisle-facing booths). The 10 cars remaining in service in 1973 were sold to Amtrak. Link lists different dates to Amtrak for each car, these dates might represent when the car was actually renumbered. Some of the dates listed by Link are from 1972, and 1 is as late as 1978. By 1972, with the continued PC bankruptcy proceedings and Amtrak negotiating what equipment would be acquired, it might've already been agreed that these 10 cars would be sold to Amtrak, effective 1973, hence some cars having already been renumbered, in advance.

#450 to PC #4550 to Amtrak #8330 in November 1972 (Link), converted in April 1981 to HEP #8519, retired in December 2006 and subsequently sold (when??) to the Tennessee Central RY Museum as TCRX #8519.

#451 listed by Link as retired in November 1959, listed by Randall as scrapped in 1960.

#452 to PC #4552 to Amtrak #8331 in September 1974 (Link), converted in January 1981 to HEP #8516, reconfigured in June 1985 to griddle diner #8553. Currently on active roster.

#453 to PC #4553 to Amtrak #8332 in December 1972 (Link), converted in March 1981 to HEP #8518, reconfigured in December 1985 to griddle diner #8555. Wrecked in May 1994 on train #87 at Selma, NC, and subsequently stored. In my notes, I have that this car was scrapped by Naparano Iron & Metal Company (Newark, NJ) in April 1999. Listed by Warner as retired in January 2003.

#454 to PC #4554 to Amtrak #8333 in May 1973 (Link), converted in August 1980 to HEP #8511, stored in October 2006. Current status unknown.

#455 to PC #4555, retired and sold in 1971 to NdeM, number and name not included in post on the MEXLIST Yahoo group. Current status unknown.

#456 to PC #4556, retired in 1971 and sold to the Choo Choo Hilton (Chattanooga, TN), named Volunteer. Current status unknown.

#457 to PC #4557 to Amtrak #8339 in March 1973 (Link), converted in December 1980 to HEP #8515, damaged by fire at Hialeah, FL, in July 1997, and subsequently stored, listed by Warner as retired in October 2003, scrapped? Current status unknown.

#458 listed by Link as retired in April 1968, listed on MEXLIST as sold to NdeM #3667 Playa Caletilla. Listed by Randall as scrapped, no mention of Mexico sale. Current status unknown.

#459 listed by Link as retired in June 1966, listed on MEXLIST as sold to NdeM #3660 Morelia. Listed by Randall as scrapped, no mention of Mexico sale. Current status unknown.

#460 to PC #4560, listed by both Link and Randall as retired in 1971, and listed by Randall as scrapped.

#461 to PC #4561 to Amtrak #8336 in July 1978 (Link), converted in January 1981 to HEP #8517, reconfigured in July 1985 to griddle diner #8554, stored in December 2006. Current status unknown.

#462 listed by Link as retired in April 1968, and listed by Randall as scrapped.

#463 to PC #4563 to Amtrak #8335 in June 1973 (Link), converted in September 1980 to HEP #8512. Currently on active roster.

#464 to PC #4564 to Amtrak #8334 in February 1973 (Link), listed by Palmieri as converted in 1981 to HEP #8520, conversion date to #8520 listed by Warner as June 1985, which is also the date listed by Warner for the reconfiguration to griddle diner #8556, retired in January 2003. Current status unknown.

#465 to PC #4565 to Amtrak #8337 in July 1974 (Link), converted in October 1980 to HEP #8513, wrecked in August 2000 at Lake City, FL, and subsequently stored, listed by Warner as retired in January 2003, scrapped? Current status unknown.

#466 to PC #4566 to Amtrak #8338 in May 1974 (Link), converted in November 1980 to HEP #8514, in my notes I have this car as stored in 2007, while Warner lists it as retired in January 2007, subsequently sold (when??) to ITAX, then to Gateway as MRLX #8514. Current status unknown.

#467 listed by Link as retired in June 1966, listed on MEXLIST as sold to NdeM #3661 Patzcuaro. Listed by Randall as scrapped, no mention of Mexico sale. Current status unknown.

Standard Diners:

3 Cars, Budd, Lot #9624-023, 1947, NYC Lot #2198:

Ordered in December 1945 and delivered between Novemeber and December 1947. Delivered in conjunction with the 9 diners (#691-#699) built in Lot #9624-004, which had been ordered in March 1944. All 12 of these diners had 44 seats at 10 4-seat tables and 2 2-seat tables. The 1 car listed by Randall as sold to Amtrak in 1973, like the 10 grill diners above, has a different date listed by Link, again, likely the date of actual renumbering.

#447 retired in April 1967 and listed by Randall as transferred to MofW, number is not listed. Current status unknown.

#448 to PC #4548, retired in 1969 and sold to High Iron Company, used as the cafeteria car during the 30 day restoration of RDG #2101 in 1975, seating increased to 48 at unknown date, later (when??) sold to unknown party and stored in New Orleans, sold in late 2008 to Dean Levin, returned to service in October 2009 as SMLX #800612, then changed to SMLX #800448, sold in 2013* to Iowa Pacific as SLRG #448/#800448, received vinyl application of IC Chocolate & Orange. On Tuesday, May 26th, at Flagstaff, AZ, while in the consist of a roundtrip passenger special enroute to San Diego (a benefit run for foster child care), BNSF Budd diner #10/#800139 Lake Superior (built by Budd in 1957 in Lot #9624-210 as NP #459 for the North Coast Limited) suffered a kitchen fire, and after the fire was suppressed by the Flagstaff FD, was taken out of the consist for return to Topeka for assessment and repair. With the Lake Superior out of service, BNSF has leased SLRG #448, photographed on June 6th on the Southwest Chief with the vinyl wrap removed and the car being forwarded to the Pacific Northwest for use on local trips over the next several months.

*Some sources state that Iowa Pacific acquired the #448 from Dean in 2011.

#449 to PC #4549, retired in 1969 and sold to the Choo Choo Hilton, name applied to car is not listed by Randall. Current status unknown.

9 Cars, Budd, Lot #9624-004, 1947, NYC Lot #2179:

Ordered in March 1944 and delivered between November and December 1947.

#691 listed by Randall as retired in 1965 and scrapped, listed by Link as retired in January 1966.

#692 listed by Randall as retired in 1965 and scrapped, listed by Link as transferred to MofW #X-23475 in August 1965. Current status unknown.

#693 listed by Randall as retired in 1965 and scrapped, listed by Link as retired in June 1966.

#694 to PC #4545 to Amtrak #8029 in April 1974 (Link), retired in 1976 and sold to Ampol Wrecking (Indianapolis).

#695 listed by Randall as retired in 1965 and scrapped, listed by Link as retired in June 1966.

#696 to PC #4546, retired in 1969 and sold to the Choo Choo Hilton, named Lillie and McCall Inc. Current status unknown.

#697 listed by Randall as retired in 1965 and sold to Jones Properties, listed by Link as retired in June 1966. Current status unknown.

#698 to PC #4547, retired in 1969 and sold to Choo Choo Hilton, name applied to car is not listed by Randall. Current status unknown.

#699 listed by Randall as retired in 1967 and sold to Jones Properties, listed by Link as retired in April 1967. Current status unknown.

Sources:

1. "Streamliner Cars Volume Two: The Budd Company" by W. David Randall (RPC Publications, 1981)

2. Terry Link's NYC passenger car roster pages: http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/NYC-MODELS-PASS.htm

3. Mike Palmieri's Amtrak rosters

4. "Amtrak by the Numbers" by David C. Warner and Elbert Simon (White River Productions, 2011)

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving NYC Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:31 pm 
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First, some disposition corrections on some of the diners listed in the previous post:

I went back and checked Jerry's website, and identified 4 additional cars which were sold to Mexico, included 2 which I had listed as scrapped:

NYC #449 to PC #4549 sold in 1969 to Choo Choo Hilton, later (when??) resold to FCP as #1376 El Tarasco, then to SCD #1376, renamed El Mixteco. Could either one of these 2 names actually belong to the 1 of the NYC diners sold to Mexico whose name has not yet been identified? Current status unknown.

NYC #693 sold (when??) to NdeM/SCD #3664 Saltillo, previously listed as scrapped in 1966. Current status unknown.

NYC #695 sold (when??) to NdeM/SCD #3665 Uruapan, previously listed as scrapped in 1966. Current status unknown.

NYC #697 sold in 1966 to Jones Properties, resold to NdeM/SCD #3666 Dolores Hidalgo, later renamed Veracruz. Was the name Dolores Hidalgo applied by Jones Properties? Current status unknown.

That being said, besides FCP/SCD #1376, NdeM ex-NYC diners thus identified are #3660-#3661 and #3664-#3667. Could #3662 and #3663 be the numbers for NYC #455/PC #4555 (sold in 1971) and #699 (sold to Jones in 1967)?

Part Two: Postwar Lightweights, Continued:

Diners, Continued:

Standard Diners, Continued:

7 Cars, P-S, Lot #6789, Plan #7547, 1948, NYC Lot #2188:

Ordered in December 1945 and delivered between August and October 1948. Like the 12 standard diners built by Budd, these 7 cars had 44 seats at 10 4-seat tables and 2 2-seat tables.

#440 listed by Randall as retired in 1966 and scrapped, listed by Link as retired in June 1966.

#441 listed by Randall as wrecked in 1961, listed by Link as retired in January 1966 and sold to Pickens RR. Current status unknown.

#442 listed by Randall as retired in 1966 and scrapped, listed by Link as retired in March 1966 and sold to Edwards International. Current status unknown.

#443 listed by Randall as retired in 1966 and scrapped, listed by Link as retired in February 1966.

#444 listed by Randall as retired in 1968, sold to Judge Roy Hofheinz-Astrodomain (Houston), and later scrapped, listed by Link as retired in February 1968 and sold to Ringling Brothers. Current status unknown.

#445 listed by Randall as retired in 1966 and scrapped, listed by Link as retired in February 1966 and sold to Edwards International. Current status unknown.

#446 listed by Randall as retired in 1966 and scrapped, listed by Link as retired in June 1966.

Sources:

1. "Streamliner Cars Volume One: Pullman Standard" by W. David Randall (RPC Publications, 1981)

2. Terry Link's NYC passenger car roster pages: http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/NYC-MODELS-PASS.htm

3. Jerry LaBoda's photo links database: http://passcarphotos.info/

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving NYC Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:11 am 
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Another disposition addition for a diner included in a previous post:

#447 to MofW number unknown to PC #47004 to Conrail #47004 sold (when??) to ITAX. Current status unknown.

Part Two: Postwar Lightweights, Continued:

Diners, Continued:

Full Diners & Kitchen Cars:

Full Diners, 5 Cars, Budd, Lot #9610-023, 1947, NYC Lot #2196:

Ordered in December 1945 and delivered between August and October 1947. 64 total dining seats: 2 traditional dining sections at either end of 5 4-seat tables and 1 2-seat table, with a center section consisting of 10 pairs of 2-seat semi-circular, aisle-facing booths with small tables, 5 per side. These cars also had a 6 seat waiting lounge (2 3-seat aisle-facing booths) at the end opposite from the end attached to the adjoining kitchen car; this end had a preparation/cabinet area, and the dining and kitchen cars were semi-permanently connected with full-width diaphragms. The 4 full diners built by Budd in Lot #9610-004 (NYC Lot #2172) listed further down in this post had the exact same seating arrangement. Regarding the 3 full diners from this Lot which were sold to the Pickens Railroad (owned by Jones Properties) and leased to CN: the number of dining seats was increased for this service to 68, and was later increased a second time to 70. This was also the case for the 3 full diners from Lot #2172 that were sold to Pickens.

#404 listed by Randall as retired in 1967 and scrapped, listed by Link as retired in April 1967 and sold to Speno RR Ballast Cleaning. Current status unknown.

#405 listed by Link as retired in December 1966 and sold to Pickens RR (listed by Randall as 1967), leased to CN as #604 in May 1967, sold to CN in July 1969, retired in 1977 and sold to Mandak Metal Processors (Selkirk, MTB).

#406 listed by Link as retired in March 1968 and sold to High Iron Company (listed by Randall as 1967), later (when??) sold to the Texas Southern, acquired in 1993 by the Washington Central RR (WCRC) as #158 for the planned Atlantic Clipper Dinner Train on the NYS&W, sold in 1997 (with the rest of the cars acquired for the Atlantic Clipper) to BC Rail (BCOL) #158 for the Pacific Starlight Dinner Train and named Manhattan, sold in 2004 to Ontario Northland as #906 Manhattan.

#407 listed by Link as retired in February 1968 and sold to Pickens RR (listed by Randall as 1969), leased to CN as #600 in May 1967, sold to CN in July 1969, retired in 1977 and sold to Mandak Metal Processors.

#408 listed by Link as retired in October 1964 and sold to Pickens RR (listed by Randall as 1963), leased to CN as #606 in May 1967, listed by Link as returned to Pickens in 1967, listed by Randall as retired in 1968 and sold to Mandak Metal Processors. This car was not scrapped however (so the sale to Mandak might be error), as it is currently listed on Ozark Mountain Railcar (along with kitchen-lounge #481). These 2 cars are stored in Mauldin, SC, with Arizona Transit Assembly (ATAX) reporting marks, along with Budd-built 56 seat chair #2938 and AT&SF baggage-messenger #3430 from the original Budd-built Super Chief.

Kitchen-Lounges, 5 Cars, Budd, Lot #9643-023, 1947, NYC Lot #2197:

Ordered in December 1945 and delivered between August and October 1947. 22 seats in the lounge, later reduced by CN to 21 to make room for a "portable bar". (These 5 cars and the 4 cars in Lot #2173 are unusual in that there was no club counter built for the lounge section, in comparison, the very similar 2 PRR Class DL85d kitchen-lounge cars built in 1952 did.) NYC's 2 kitchen-lounge cars built by P-S in 1948 for the 20th Century Limited also had no club counter.

#478 listed by Link as retired in December 1966 and sold to Pickens RR (listed by Randall as 1967), leased to CN as #605 in May 1967, sold to CN in July 1969, retired in 1977 and sold to Mandak Metal Processors.

#479 listed by Randall as retired in 1967 and scrapped, listed by Link as retired in April 1967 and sold to Speno RR Ballast Cleaning. Current status unknown.

#480 retired in March 1968 and sold to High Iron Company. Current status unknown.

#481 listed by Link as retired in October 1964 and sold to Pickens RR, leased to CN as #607 in May 1967, listed by Link as returned to Pickens in 1967, listed by Randall as retired in 1968 and sold to Mandak Metal Processors. This car was not scrapped however (so the sale to Mandak might be error), as it is currently listed on Ozark Mountain Railcar (along with full diner #408).

#482 listed by Link as retired in December 1966 and sold to Pickens RR (listed by Randall as 1967), leased to CN as #601 in May 1967, sold to CN in July 1969, retired in 1977 and sold to Mandak Metal Processors.

Full Diners, 4 Cars, Budd, Lot #9610-004, 1947, NYC Lot #2172:

Ordered in March 1944 and delivered between August and October 1947.

#487 listed by Link as retired in February 1965 and sold to Pickens RR, leased to CN as #610 in May 1967, sold to CN in July 1969, retired in 1977 and sold to Mandak Metal Processors.

#488 to PC #4590, sold in 1970 to SCL as #5980, retired in 1971 and scrapped.

#489 listed by Link as retired in October 1964 and sold to Pickens RR, leased to CN as #602 in May 1967, sold to CN in July 1969, retired in 1977 and sold to Sedbec-Feruni (Contrecoeur, QUE).

#490 listed by Link as retired in February 1966 and sold to Pickens RR, leased to CNas #608 in May 1967, sold to CN in July 1969, retired in 1977 and sold to Mandak Metal Processors.

Kitchen-Lounges, 4 Cars, Budd, Lot #9643-004, 1947, NYC Lot #2173:

Ordered in March 1944 and delivered in August 1947. These cars originally had 21 seats in the lounge, which had been reduced by 1966 to 20; later reduced by CN to 19 to make room for a "portable bar".

#483 listed by Link as retired in February 1965 and sold to Pickens RR, leased to CN as #611 in May 1967, sold to CN in July 1969, retired in 1977 and sold to Mandak Metal Processors.

#484 listed by Link as retired in February 1966 and sold to Pickens RR, leased to CN as #609 in May 1967, sold to CN in July 1969, retired in 1977 and sold to Mandak Metal Processors.

#485 listed by Link as retired in October 1964 and sold to Pickens RR, leased to CN as #603 in May 1967, sold to CN in July 1969, retired in 1977 and sold to Sedbec-Feruni.

#486 to PC #4591, sold in 1970 to SCL as #5981, retired in 1971 and scrapped.

Sources:

1. "Streamliner Cars Volume Two: The Budd Company" by W. David Randall (RPC Publications, 1981)

2. Terry Link's NYC passenger car roster pages: http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/NYC-MODELS-PASS.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving NYC Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:42 pm 

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NYC 1939 sleeper lounge CHITTENANGO FALLS, ex Ted Church, is located at US 33 east, Wapakoneta, Ohio, as of June 2015. Restoration has been going on for a decade. The exterior was painted two tone gray maybe a decade ago. Interior work continues slowly.


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving NYC Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:41 am 

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NKP779 wrote:
NYC 1939 sleeper lounge CHITTENANGO FALLS, ex Ted Church, is located at US 33 east, Wapakoneta, Ohio, as of June 2015. Restoration has been going on for a decade. The exterior was painted two tone gray maybe a decade ago. Interior work continues slowly.


Who owns that car now? Paint job looks pretty darn good for being that old, and I last saw her in 2013. Also, how about that AMTK baggage she's parked with down there?

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving NYC Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:56 pm 
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On Friday, November 7th, 2014, 8th Post on Page #6, Rainier Rails wrote:
Part Two: Postwar Lightweights, Continued:

Sleepers, Continued:

22RM Bay-Series:

45 Cars, P-S, Lot #6790, Plan #4122, 1948, NYC Lot #2189:

Ordered in December 1945. Randall lists cars as delivered in October 1948, Madden lists cars as delivered between July and October 1948.

#10427 Sandusky Bay, sold in 1959 to IC Fort Dodge, rebuilt in 1966 to 10 seat lunch counter 16 seat diner 16 seat lounge #4203, wrecked in 1971 at Tonti, IL.

#10444 Sturgeon Bay, sold in 1959 to IC and rebuilt in 1962 to baggage #1822, wrecked in 1971 at Tonti, IL.


Found the NTSB accident report online: http://specialcollection.dotlibrary.dot.gov/Document?db=DOT-RAILROAD&query=(select+3951)

This was Amtrak's southbound #1 City of New Orleans, which derailed at Tonti (Salem), IL, on June 10th, 1971. At that early point in time, the train was still running with an all-IC consist, including one of the Burnham Shop's streamlined heavyweights. In this fatal accident, the first 2 of the 4 engines and the first 7 of 14 total passenger cars flipped sideways, and the following 5 cars also derailed, as well as the 3rd and 4th engines. The consist was:

E8A #4031

E9B #4109

E9B #4106

E10A #2024

Baggage #1822

56 seat chair #2622 Tangipahoa (P-S, Lot #6766, Plan #7531, 1947)

56 seat chair #2616 Delgado (P-S, Lot #6766, Plan #7531, 1947)

Lunch counter diner lounge #4203

48 seat chair #2611 Calcasieu (P-S, Lot #6766, Plan #7530, 1947, built for the City of New Orleans)

60 seat chair-conductor's desk #2601 Japonica (P-S, Lot #6633, Plan #7440, 1940, built for the City of Miami)

60 seat chair #2500 (ex-C&EI #461 Vincennes Trail, P-S, Lot #6743, Plan #7489, 1946, sold to IC in 1961)

48 seat chair #2610 Chartres (P-S, Lot #6766, Plan #7530, 1947, built for the City of New Orleans)

56 seat chair #2634 (P-S, Lot #6766, Plan #7531, 1947)

56 seat chair #2620 Maurepas (P-S, Lot #6766, Plan #7531, 1947)

10 seat lounge-12 seat club lounge-24 seat chair #3335. Built in 1916 by Pullman in Lot #4406 to Floorplan #6-B-90 as 88 seat coach #2169, rebuilt at Burnham in 1947 to streamlined crew locker-conductor's office-13 seat club lounge-24 seat chair #3335 Grant Park for the Green Diamond, reconfigured to 10 seat lounge-12 seat club lounge-24 seat chair in 1961. In my notes, I have this car as sold to an unknown party in 1971, most likely a scrap dealer.

56 seat chair #2626 Poydras (P-S, Lot #6766, Plan #7531, 1947). Sold after the wreck to Southwest Railroad Car Parts in Greggton, TX, presumably for scrapping.

56 seat chair #2630 (P-S, Lot #6766, Plan #7531, 1947). Sold after the wreck to Frederick G. Dewey (Detroit), who reconfigured it to a sleeper lounge (with 2 Master Rooms) as the Illinois Rose (#800366). Current status/location unknown.

56 seat chair #2619 Gravier (P-S, Lot #6766, Plan #7531, 1947). Transferred to the MofW department after the wreck as #100056 (Carbondale wreck train), and sold in 1986 to William S. Hale in Hardin, KY. Later acquired by Gray Tuttle/Waccamaw Coast Line in Clinton, NC. Sold at auction to "The Station at Cedar Yard" restaurant in Charlotte, scrapped sometime in the 2000's.

Image from NTSB accident report showing damage to chair #2616, followed by image and diagram showing position of engines and cars after wreck.

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.


Attachments:
File comment: Damage to IC #2616, #1 City of New Orleans, 6-10-1971, Tonti, IL
Damage to IC #2616, #1 City of New Orleans, 6-10-1971, Tonti, IL.jpg
Damage to IC #2616, #1 City of New Orleans, 6-10-1971, Tonti, IL.jpg [ 34.72 KiB | Viewed 1639 times ]
File comment: Car Position, #1 City of New Orleans, 6-10-1971, Tonti, IL
Car Position, #1 City of New Orleans, 6-10-1971, Tonti, IL (A).jpg
Car Position, #1 City of New Orleans, 6-10-1971, Tonti, IL (A).jpg [ 73.55 KiB | Viewed 1639 times ]
File comment: Car Position, #1 City of New Orleans, 6-10-1971, Tonti, IL
Car Position, #1 City of New Orleans, 6-10-1971, Tonti, IL.jpg
Car Position, #1 City of New Orleans, 6-10-1971, Tonti, IL.jpg [ 63.05 KiB | Viewed 1639 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving NYC Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:13 pm 

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Location: Northern Illinois
Slightly OT for this thread (NYC cars), but the IC streamlined coaches derailed at Tonti had all lost their names by this time. The 2610 and 2611, initially built as 48-seat "day-nite" coaches for the City of New Orleans, had likely been converted to 56-seat cars, like the surviving 2612 "Carondelet" which is at the Monticello Railway Museum.

If I remember correctly, the Tonti wreck was caused by failure of the wheel slip detection system on the old and not-so-well-maintained IC E-units to report a sliding wheelset on one of the trailing locomotives.


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving NYC Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:30 pm 
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Thanks, Peter, for the info!

I went back and checked the 1972 passenger car diagram folio, which shows that seating was at some point increased to 60, but this has been crossed out and reduced to 56, with diagram revisions G and H listed, with dates 10/10/1969 and 12/4/1970 respectively. In comparison, the June 1961 diagram still shows the seating as 48, with diagram revisions A-D listed. The date for revision D is 12/7/1956. Unfortunately, the diagram does not note under which revisions the seating capacity was changed, so the dates for when the seating was increased, then decreased remain unknown. Anyone have IC diagrams from between 1961 and 1972 that would help identify when these changes were made? Thanks in advance!

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving NYC Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:53 pm 

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Location: Morganton, N.C.
Quote:
If I remember correctly, the Tonti wreck was caused by failure of the wheel slip detection system on the old and not-so-well-maintained IC E-units to report a sliding wheelset on one of the trailing locomotives.


Yes... this is mentioned in the report linked too above, in Section H paragraph 1, paragraph 3, paragraph 4, and also in the Analysis of the derailment further down the page. The axle or axles that locked up slid far enough to create a false flange on the outside portion of the truck, making it impossible for the wheels to follow the rail as it passed over the crossover.

Definitely an interesting read despite the scope of the tragedy. Really a shame but not something that likely could have been foreseen. Thanks for sharing the consist and the link to the derailment report... I definitely will be looking at other derailment and wreck reports a bit more closely from now on, given how much information was gleaned from this report... there is definitely a lot to learn from these reports.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving NYC Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:23 am 
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On Wednesday, November 12th, 2014, 3rd Post on Page #7, Rainier Rails wrote:
Part Two: Postwar Lightweights, Continued:

Coaches:

153 Cars, P-S, Lot #6721, Plan #7484, 1946, NYC Lot #2169:

Ordered in May 1944, delivered between February and October 1946. 64 seat coaches.

#3092 reconfigured in 1969 to PC 50 seat snack bar coach #3218, sold in 1971 to Amtrak #3958, retired in 1976 and sold to Ampol Wrecking.
On Monday, June 8th, 2015, 6th Post on Page #8, Rainier Rails wrote:
Part Two: Postwar Lightweights, Continued:

Diners:

Standard Diners:

9 Cars, Budd, Lot #9624-004, 1947, NYC Lot #2179:

Ordered in March 1944 and delivered between November and December 1947.

#694 to PC #4545 to Amtrak #8029 in April 1974 (Link), retired in 1976 and sold to Ampol Wrecking (Indianapolis).


Another NTSB accident report: http://specialcollection.dotlibrary.dot.gov/Document?db=DOT-RAILROAD&query=(select+3984)

On the morning of June 30th, 1976, at 8:17 AM, Amtrak's southbound #59 Panama Limited derailed a few miles south of Goodman, MS, in a track work area. The train consisted of 2 P30CH engines ("Pooches"), a steam generator (converted from an ex-UP E9B) and 10 passenger cars. An 11th passenger car, # unknown, had apparently been set out at Durant, MS, for reasons unknown. #59 left Durant at 8:09 AM; scheduled departure according to the June 15th timetable was 7:15 AM. The consist was:

P30CH #721

P30CH #717

Steam generator #1921, built in 1955 by EMD in Order #2072 as UP E9B #967B, sold in 1972 to Amtrak as #467, converted in 1975 by ICG to steam generator #1921. After the wreck, the #1921 remained in service and was renumbered in 1977 to #671. #671 was sold in May 1983 to the Michigan Northern, and later (when??) went to the Illinois RY Museum before being acquired (when??) by the Wisconsin & Southern, which restored it to an E9B as #102 in 2008.

Baggage #1058, built in 1957 by Budd in Lot #9601-209 as AT&SF baggage-express #3544, sold in 1971 to Amtrak as #1058. After the wreck, the #1058 was converted to HEP in 1978 as #1227, but I don't know if the #1058 was in service between the wreck and the conversion date, or if it was stored for that length of time. Anyways, the #1227 was wrecked on the westbound #5 California Zephyr in Fraser Canyon near Granby, CO, on April 16th, 1985.

5DB sleeper-22 seat buffet lounge-crew locker #3253 City of Cleveland, operating as crew dormitory. Built in 1950 by P-S in Lot #6867 to Plan #4169 as NKP #150, to N&W, sold in 1971 to Amtrak. After the wreck, sold in November 1977 to Rod Basich as the #800050 Montecito (Laguna Hills, CA). Later (when??) acquired by American Orient Express as crew dormitory-diner lounge San Francisco, transferred in 2008 by Xanterra to the Grand Canyon RY.

Sleeper #2068. The thing is, there was no sleeper rostered by Amtrak as #2068. In fact, the only lightweight sleeper that I know of that was #2068 was CN ex-NYC 22RM sleeper #2068 Valpoy (built as NYC #10422 Delaware Bay), but this can't be the car in question for 3 reasons: 1, the only revenue sleeper on a long-distance train would not have been an all-roomette car; 2, CN, as far as I know, didn't lease any equipment to Amtrak; and 3, the #2068 had been rebuilt as 14RM dormitory-baggage #9480 in 1973! That being the case, this sleeper could have been either ex-UP 11DB #2268 Placid Valley, ex-AT&SF 4DB-4C-2DR #2368 Regal Ruby, or nee-SAL 10RM-6DB #2768 Portsmouth. #2268 was retired in July 1981 and sold in 1982 to Anbel Corporation, then to SCD in 1983 as #731 Aranjuez; #2368 was retired in 1979 and sold to the "Vassar Junction Playhouse" in Vassar, KS, and was later (when??) acquired by an "R. Bryan" and moved to the Midland RY Historical Assocation (Baldwin City, KS); and the #2768 was retired in 1977 and sold to Ampol Wrecking in Indianapolis. Based on these retirement dates and the disposition of the #2768, I'm concluding that this 3rd car is the sleeper in question. The Portsmouth was built in 1949 by P-S in Lot #6796 to Plan #4140A as SAL #28, later SCL #6620, and interestingly, was 1 of 4 10-6 sleepers SCL sold to Amtrak as wreck replacements after a wreck in December 1971 retired 4 ex-SCL cars (3 chairs and a baggage-dormitory), which were returned to SCL and likely stripped of all usable parts before scrapping. The cars sold were 2 nee-ACL County-series cars (in 1971) and 2 nee-SAL cars (in 1974).

44 seat diner #8029.

60 seat chair #6010, built in 1948 by Budd in Lot #9673-017 as C&O 36 seat chair-8 seat smoker #1504, sold in 1950 to SAL #6227, reconfigured in 1954 to 50 seat chair, to SCL #5130, sold in 1971 to Amtrak #5000, seating increased to 60 in 1974 as #6010. "Amtrak by the Numbers" lists that the #6010 was transferred to the MofW department as #10605, but the #10605 was actually the ex-#6040, exx-#5233, nee-AT&SF #3161. Like the sleeper, diner, and all but 1 of the other chairs, after the wreck the #6010 was likely sold for scrap to Ampol Wrecking.

60 seat chair #6051, built in 1955 by AC&F in Lot #04-4403 as L&N #3255, sold in 1971 to Amtrak. Sold later in 1976 to Ampol Wrecking.

56 seat chair #5623, built in 1946 by Budd in Lot #9613-005 as FEC Dania, sold in 1965 to SAL #6258, to SCL #5623, sold in 1971 to Amtrak. Sold in 1977 to Ampol Wrecking.

60 seat chair #6011, built in 1948 by Budd in Lot #9673-017 as C&O 36 seat chair-8 seat smoker #1505, sold in 1950 to SAL #6228, reconfigured in 1954 to 50 seat chair, to SCL #5131, sold in 1971 to Amtrak #5001, seating increased to 60 in 1974 as #6011. "Amtrak by the Numbers" lists that the #6011 was not sold until May 1986 to an unknown party. Current status/location unknown.

60 seat chair #6059, built in 1955 by AC&F in Lot #04-4403 as L&N #3263, sold in 1971 to Amtrak. Sold later in 1976 to Ampol Wrecking.

50 seat chair-snack bar #3958.

Sources:

1. "Streamliner Cars Volume One: Pullman Standard" by W. David Randall (RPC Publications, 1981)

2. "Streamliner Cars Volume Two: The Budd Company" by W. David Randall (RPC Publications, 1981)

3. "Streamliner Cars Volume Three: ACF - Other Builders" by W. David Randall (RPC Publications, 1982)

4. Mike Palmieri's Amtrak rosters

5. "Amtrak by the Numbers" by David C. Warner and Elbert Simon (White River Productions, 2011)

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

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