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 Post subject: Re: PRR 1361 Update
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:32 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2097
Overmod wrote:
Quote:
"Thats the sentinent for 1361, it won't happen overnight. They have the Ultrasounds and that will guide how progress goes"


But there is still that issue Mike Tillger and others have documented: the wrapper roof sheet being insufficiently specified.

To me, this raises a particular preservation question: Do you preserve outright mistakes as part of the 'history' (or 'historic fabric' of the artifact locomotive itself), or do you fix it the way the design requirements mandate, if an explicit purpose of the restoration to steam is to run the locomotive in safe service.

The point has been made that an 'amended' MAWP based on the current structure, given as about 150 psi, would be 'adequate' for many purposes... perhaps including excursion service at a worse (perhaps much worse!) water rate. I have not yet seen explicit discussion whether 'nutting' the roof staybolting is acceptable today -- by either the current restorers or as a matter of National Board or other applicable code policy -- in allowing a higher working pressure (even if shy of 205). Surely the nutting is 'correct' for K4s as built, if the procedure was changed as late as the '40s ... but what if ARRM is restoring her to her 'last running condition' as retired?

As others have noted, I'll be happy to see 1361 back together in one piece on the same 'terms and conditions' as 1218 was done. I'm thoroughly delighted to hear that the 'ultimate' goal is to steam her -- it tells me, for one thing, that no corners will be cut in the mechanical work now being undertaken, and the side-bearing adjustment would further confirm the intent for me.


if you preserve the historical artifact, you put the boiler aside and build a new replicated boiler inline to the current boiler mandate. Then mark old boiler for display "this was this and that was that from boiler construction in the old days".

otherwise take detailed photos before/after repairs. The engine won't go out till it is secured/safe and inspected properly. I would look at the repairs as a good mod to the Belpaire boiler to bring it to modern code that was not originally done from original construction. I see it as a technical triumph of steam getting better. We need that if any future railroad plans see steam return to mainline regular service..-if- that ever happens. All the historical societies running steam are keeping steam technology alive, if this world loses oil, we gots the backup plan and people in the know.
This is another reason why its important to do this right. Keep 'er going guys, get it done right and it'll be cool.


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 1361 Update
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:24 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 723
A minor point: FRA does NOT do ut inspections.
That is the sole responsibility of the owner/operator.


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 1361 Update
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:42 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:41 pm
Posts: 96
Overmod wrote:
Quote:
"Thats the sentinent for 1361, it won't happen overnight. They have the Ultrasounds and that will guide how progress goes"


I have not yet seen explicit discussion whether 'nutting' the roof staybolting is acceptable today -- by either the current restorers or as a matter of National Board or other applicable code policy -- in allowing a higher working pressure (even if shy of 205). Surely the nutting is 'correct' for K4s as built, if the procedure was changed as late as the '40s ... but what if ARRM is restoring her to her 'last running condition' as retired?


Both the current 2015 ASME BPVC Section I and the oft referenced 1971 ed. have provisions for the addition of single nuts attached to stays screwed through plates. This second method of staybolt attachment allows for a higher constant to be used, resulting in a higher MAWP.

Unfortunately, the only way to install the cap nuts is to install new, longer crown bolts that protrude through the roof sheet. At that point, replacing the roof sheet as a whole with one of greater thickness is a logical path if a MAWP of 205 psig was sought. This is why I'm assuming SRC had a new one fabricated off site for the LIRR 39.

If the ARRM wanted to avoid that cost right now (barring any other condemning defects) to get it running and pulling in visitors to the museum, I think 175 psig is adequate. It certainly wouldn't be the first locomotive or boiler derated.


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 1361 Update
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:53 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:47 pm
Posts: 475
If I had any say in the matter (I do not) I would suggest doing anything and everything possible to rebuild her to 205 operating psi. Given the restoration history of this locomotive, and the general negativity of the heritage rail community, choosing to rebuild her to a lower psi might do more harm then good, from a marketing perspective.

My opinion: Take as long as you want/need to finish her, but go all the way.

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 Post subject: Re: PRR 1361 Update
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:47 am 

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:16 pm
Posts: 30
I know I'm bringing back a zombie thread and a touchy subject, however nature abhors a vacuum, so here goes.

The Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum has not updated the information on their website regarding K-4s #1361 since 2013! Nothing. I have contacted the museum regarding this on several occasions and received no reply from email or voice mail.

The museum sent out their annual membership request brochures recently and even those lack any updated information.

Anybody out there have anything new on this decades old multi-million dollar quagmire's progress?


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 1361 Update
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:21 am 

Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:31 am
Posts: 399
There has been some news, mainly that most of her parts are in the same place now, with some light refurbishment occurring (cleaning, painting, inventory of ancillary parts). If there is any boiler work going on, it is at a snail's pace. That being said, she has a lot going for her. Too bad she can't be donated/sold/traded to another institution that is willing to take her on and finish the restoration.

[edit] I notice that her tractive effort puts her right in the Steamtown "sweet spot." Not to derail the proposed work on CN mike 3377, but if all the K4 really needs is a properly built firebox and general reassembly, she might be the fastest route to steam...


Last edited by 6-18003 on Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:41 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: PRR 1361 Update
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:24 am 

Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:31 am
Posts: 399
Most recent photos I could find after a quick search:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/k4- ... 5443232144


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 1361 Update
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:21 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 3748
Location: Maine
People need to put the past in the past. The K4s is one of the top few, most loved, locomotive designs. She came close to operation, but a bloody trail was left behind in a time when the investment could have resulted in the K4s and another locomotive being restored properly from the get-go.
So bold investor needs to fund the rebuild and hand the project over to a single competent shop. This means full transparency and oversight.

The K4s deserves better.

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"It's only impossible until it's done." -Nelson Mandela


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 1361 Update
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:30 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:31 am
Posts: 399
Richard Glueck wrote:
People need to put the past in the past. The K4s is one of the top few, most loved, locomotive designs. She came close to operation, but a bloody trail was left behind in a time when the investment could have resulted in the K4s and another locomotive being restored properly from the get-go.
So bold investor needs to fund the rebuild and hand the project over to a single competent shop. This means full transparency and oversight.

The K4s deserves better.


SNHS is serious about restoring something that fits their needs as soon as 3713 is finished. Again, I don't want to take anything away from CN 3377 and I like the pacific/mikado mix that has been present at the park for a long time, but I can't lie and say I wouldn't be ecstatic to see the K4 under steam.


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 1361 Update
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:58 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:19 pm
Posts: 1607
Location: Pottstown,Pa.
Guys there's a reason this has long since been declared a DEAD HORSE.

Her realistic chances of running again received a very proper funeral years ago and the coffin in which those chances were buried was placed into an exhume proof vault hundreds of feet underground.

Let the deceased R.I.P.

IMHO-Ross Rowland


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 1361 Update
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:21 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 1753
"So bold investor needs to fund the rebuild and hand the project over to a single competent shop. This means full transparency and oversight."

Bold donor. Investors expect a financial return.

I do wonder what a new boiler would cost.


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 1361 Update
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:49 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:31 am
Posts: 399
It doesn't need a boiler, it needs a new firebox.


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 1361 Update
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:58 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:31 am
Posts: 399
co614 wrote:
Guys there's a reason this has long since been declared a DEAD HORSE.

Her realistic chances of running again received a very proper funeral years ago and the coffin in which those chances were buried was placed into an exhume proof vault hundreds of feet underground.

Let the deceased R.I.P.

IMHO-Ross Rowland


So let's throw a little more dirt on the grave, eh, Ross?

Let's make a big assumption and say that SNHS works a deal for the 1361. Trade, cash, combination of the two, whatever. Right now the park is planning to revive CN 3377. They have to pay workers to disassemble 3377 and part of 3254 anyway, so there is a cost associated with both. Like 1361, '77 has many new or refurbished parts. 1361 has a known firebox issue. 3377 has a boiler/firebox/smoke box of an unknown quantity. It's nearly apples to apples in terms of time and money. Both are excellent candidates for restoration and specifically operation at SNSH.

Is there anything on the dead line that the boys in Altoona would be interested in?


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 1361 Update
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:20 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:19 pm
Posts: 1607
Location: Pottstown,Pa.
Well, let's see. It took S'town about 20 years to rebuild a small 0-6-0. Based upon that and extrapolating to the relative size of the K4 they should be able to do the job ( assuming they or someone comes up with the high 6 figures for a new firebox) in about 67 years, give or take a few years.

Good luck.

Ross Rowland


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 1361 Update
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:04 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:31 am
Posts: 399
co614 wrote:
Well, let's see. It took S'town about 20 years to rebuild a small 0-6-0. Based upon that and extrapolating to the relative size of the K4 they should be able to do the job ( assuming they or someone comes up with the high 6 figures for a new firebox) in about 67 years, give or take a few years.

Good luck.

Ross Rowland


Sup. Conway seems to be a little more proactive. Here's hoping we are all pleasantly surprised.


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