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 Post subject: Re: U.P. Steam Shop status of steam fleet?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:06 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 710
Properly treating the feed water, blowing the boiler down several times an hour, and doing complete boiler washes when necessary are all that are needed to prevent this kind of thing.

In this case, some of the scale removed resembled rings on a tree stump. There were 3 or 4 distinct layers of mud and scale, evidence of not washing the boiler properly. Or maybe not washing it at all. There is plenty of evidence that a post-2011 "boiler wash" consisted of running it the maximum 31 service days (and maybe a couple more), then simply kill it, drain it, re-fill it, and fire it back up. The 4 layers represent the times in 2012 and early 2013 when the boiler was allegedly "washed."

The new water treatment would make mud and scale disappear like magic, so why bother taking out all the plugs and doing a thorough wash or doing blowdowns?


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 Post subject: Re: U.P. Steam Shop status of steam fleet?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:17 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
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Location: Maine
Isn't this whole conversation still based on suppositions, rather than hard evidence in hand?

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 Post subject: Re: U.P. Steam Shop status of steam fleet?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 12:52 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 710
Richard Glueck wrote:
Isn't this whole conversation still based on suppositions, rather than hard evidence in hand?



Not unless you see the photos and the actual things that too many of us have seen and heard first hand as mere suppositions.


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 Post subject: Re: U.P. Steam Shop status of steam fleet?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 7:05 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:24 am
Posts: 478
Location: Canada
And don't forget that much of the evidence is apparently being hauled straight to the scrappers as soon as it is removed. There has been much "chatter" that items removed from 844 were displayed as being from 3985 also, so who knows how much truth you are going to find if those in charge are doing their best to hide the evidence.


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 Post subject: Re: U.P. Steam Shop status of steam fleet?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:03 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:58 pm
Posts: 1195
Location: Chicago USA
Where is the new boss in all this? Railroads generate scrap metal. Do they usually go running to the scrapper with every few hundred pounds? Don't they gather up carloads? So if someone is making a special effort to run small pieces to the scrapper is that not automatically suspicious? Is the new guy complicit in a coverup?


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 Post subject: Re: U.P. Steam Shop status of steam fleet?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:09 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 3724
Location: Maine
Which all sound preposterous to me. I would prefer to see hard evidence before speculating that some underhanded is going on. I think pictures of the removed steel and/or butchered locomotives would suffice. This is spiraling into a mountain of accusations based on "he said/she said" stories.

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 Post subject: Re: U.P. Steam Shop status of steam fleet?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:26 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 710
Richard Glueck wrote:
Which all sound preposterous to me. I would prefer to see hard evidence before speculating that some underhanded is going on. I think pictures of the removed steel and/or butchered locomotives would suffice. This is spiraling into a mountain of accusations based on "he said/she said" stories.



Trying to avoid stepping into Jeff's personal attack minefield here, Richard, there are photos on this site and others of the flues and tubes removed and their incredibly poor condition. There are photos of the mud and scale packed in around the bottom 4 rows of flues and tubes. There are photos of staybolt caps that had holed drilled in them, then were declared unfit for service. (With holes drilled in them? Duh.)

There is plenty of evidence to those who are willing to look for it and willing to assess the situation with a cold, analytical eye, unencumbered by the charm offensive one runs into too often.

It's hard for some people to accept that they have been gulled. But there is far too much real evidence and testimony by knowledgeable people about the situation to simply pass it off as not being credible.

I think I remember you posting a few years back after a Cheyenne visit that UP 5511 was going to be restored. Where is the hard evidence of that??

Again, no disrespect intended. Just trying to remove the wool from eyes. Unbridled enthusiasm is usually a good quality, but sometimes it can blind one to the obvious.

Just sayin'.


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 Post subject: Re: U.P. Steam Shop status of steam fleet?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:43 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 3724
Location: Maine
I absolutely did post that in 2012, but that was what a steam shop individual told me was in the planning while I was touring the shop. I did mention that I was also told it was not decided upon, but in discussion, and the locomotive would be moved to another location on the system. I looked at it as speculative at the time, too. Then there was the issue of the 838 tender, sitting directly on the soil, earmarked for scrapping, with photos to show it. The point I guess I am trying to make is, if the tubes and mud ring are in such bad condition, and the metal has been hustled off to scrap, there was to be hard evidence to bolster the speculation. Here I mean no disrespect to you or others in this thread, but I want to see those images, get direct quotes from individuals within the system, and understand what brought about this "travesty" we are hearing discussed.
I have yet to hear from Union Pacific that the steam program is in trouble. You would think they'd know. Furthermore, such a high-profile heritage program, if it is in jeopardy, would be fast-tracked for institutional remedy over a cover-up.

Just sayin'.

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 Post subject: Re: U.P. Steam Shop status of steam fleet?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:52 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:31 am
Posts: 1
The UP Steam Program is a Public Relations program.
I suspect it's directed at shippers, shareholders employees, and lastly rail fans.
In exactly that order. It's a negligible side benefit if foamers and self-appointed experts like what they're doing or how they're handling locomotives, shops, cars, and tracks that belong to the Union Pacific Railroad.

That said, there is nothing that will kill the program deader than negativity around it.
In a long career in advertising for major household brand names, I have seen over
and over how a little negativity, and you'd be surprised how little it can be, by the way,
can kill a program like the UP Steam Program in less than a New York minute. If anybody
thinks that their negative pot shots don't or can't have an effect on the program they're just plain wrong. Somewhere, a corporate employee of the Union Pacific Railroad has to make regularly scheduled presentations justifying the substantial funds being
spent on the Steam Program. That's just corporate reality in 2015. The negativity swirling around the Program does not help that person's efforts to keep steam alive on the UP. For all of us.
I would suggest that the point has been made, over and over ad nauseam. I would suggest discretion is the better form of valor. Consider, please, toning it down. Or simply acting like an adult and enjoy the show quietly from the sidelines.


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 Post subject: Re: U.P. Steam Shop status of steam fleet?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:38 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 710
OK, let's try this again, from the viewpoint of a UP shareholder, which I am and have been since 1980.

Yes, it is a PR program, or is supposed to be. It has been dysfunctional for over 2 years now, producing nothing at all in terms of PR. Nothing has been under steam, or out garnering PR for that long, and it may be that it will be more years before the program can again produce PR.

In the meantime, what are we shareholders getting for our money? We see a lot of money going into the program, for ever-changing and sometimes dubious reasons (at best). We see nothing coming out of other end of that pipe, and little prospect of that happening any time soon. So ignoring the situation and hoping things will get better someday is a realistic option? I don't think so.

Every day without a functioning steam program is one more day of "proof" to some executive types that steam doesn't matter and the company goes on just fine without it.

Every day the budget people see money going in and nothing coming out but blue sky is also a hazard to a program.

Until a few years ago, UP had a functioning, highly-regarded steam/PR program. 2 1/2 years after the hand-off, it has neither. Ignoring that fact doesn't make it get better.

Every dollar spent on trinkets, bling and unnecessary work is a dollar that doesn't go into necessary parts or work. Every committment made and then missed is another black mark. These things add up. Every excuse that is exposed as BS also adds to the issue.

There are a lot of people on this board who know steam programs intimately. They can easily tell when things are not right and are not afraid to say to. Such as the rush to spirit away parts that might show there was nothing wrong with those parts rings alarm bells, especially when it's done by people who have no issue at all proudly broadcasting when they think they have actually found something wrong that they can blame on others.

There is another subset of people who think they know a lot more than they actually do. They serve mostly to muddy the waters and distract.

Then there are those who want to paint the best possible face on anything and everything. Call it denial or unrestrained enthusiasm or whatever. These are the well-meaning but naive folks who won't see the light even when it's shined in their eyes.
There is never enough proof for these folks, and there never will be. In their own way, they could be said to be mildly complicit in this mess by their unquestioning acceptance of everything they are fed.

So, back to your complaint about negativity. How much longer should people let this farce play out? Another year? Two? Three? How much shareholder money goes down the toilet before someone actually does say, "enough!" One problem is that there is no one left at the Senior Executive level now who knows what a properly functioning, budget conscious steam program looks like. There are some low-level managers taking full advantage of that fact right now. It's job security for them.

Your "negativity" is other people's effort to get Senior Management to understand that they made a serious, costly mistake a few years ago, and that the circus is still in town, still milking the treasury. In addition, it's also to say that the situation isn't entirely hopeless yet. But as time wears on and more goofy, destructive crap is allowed to pass for progress, it will eventually become either hopeless, nonsensical, or both. Then the finger pointing will go into hyper-drive.

Looking the other way and avoiding negativity got UP Steam where it is today. Do you really think more of that will help?


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 Post subject: Re: U.P. Steam Shop status of steam fleet?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:04 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 457
Lincoln Penn wrote:
OK, let's try this again, from the viewpoint of a UP shareholder, which I am and have been since 1980.
Why are you posting here on RYPN, instead of contacting UP's Investor Relations office? As a disgrunted shareholder, you might also ask them to explain their storing of a multi-million dollar SD70ACe.

Or you could just sell your stock.

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 Post subject: Re: U.P. Steam Shop status of steam fleet?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:12 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 710
Chris Webster wrote:
Lincoln Penn wrote:
OK, let's try this again, from the viewpoint of a UP shareholder, which I am and have been since 1980.
Why are you posting here on RYPN, instead of contacting UP's Investor Relations office? As a disgrunted shareholder, you might also ask them to explain their storing of a multi-million dollar SD70ACe.

Or you could just sell your stock.


You think I haven't contacted them, I take it?

Do you think they should be worried sick about the 4141 when they have almost 1,000 other locomotives stored?

Maybe you are right; this does seem to be a waste of time. People will believe what they want to believe, no matter how far away it might be from reality.


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 Post subject: Re: U.P. Steam Shop status of steam fleet?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:20 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:43 am
Posts: 421
Location: Floyd, AR
What exactly do you hope to accomplish by these posts here and elsewhere?

I see the problem. I guess you are/were someone with UP steam, but those connections have failed you. No change.

You are a shareholder, and that avenue has failed you too. No change. No surprise, there is more then one kind of shareholder. Some shareholders get a complementary limo to pick them up at the airport and supper with the BOD, maybe the next major facility named after them. Some shareholders get a case of Omaha steaks for Christmas. The rest of them get a glossy magazine once in a while explaining how wisely they are spending your money. With a company like the UP, even a few million dollars in shares makes you a minor stakeholder. Maybe gets you to be a steakholder once a year, too.

So, it seems you are really here trolling. For what, I don't know. Maybe you think the CEO of UP is reading this and nodding his head? You are looking for a foamer army to picket the roundhouse? Time to be a Realist, and move on. I'm sure other former UP steam people have called them, railfans have sent letters, etc. They have proven, one way or the other, they just don't care what you think. UP steam is going to march on and head to it's inevitable conclusion, the one that they laid out for themselves, good or bad, intentional or not.

There has to be a steam program near you that can use your immeasurable talents. Wouldn't your energy be better spent where it can make a difference?

This thread, along with about 98% of all UP steam threads of the last 2 years, has nothing to do with preservation. Just a soapbox.

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Board Member, Cotton Belt Rail Historical Society, Arkansas Railroad Museum, steam engine SSW819.
Any information or opinions I express are my own, and are not the views of the CBRHS or anyone else, unless explicitly stated otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: U.P. Steam Shop status of steam fleet?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:56 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 710
Hate to disappoint you Robert, but my "talent" is in pretty high demand these days.
I have completed a couple of restorations that are out and running, have several more that are progressing nicely, and several more on my waiting list.

I have no time for projects that are stagnant or, worse, going backward.


Last edited by Lincoln Penn on Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: U.P. Steam Shop status of steam fleet?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:31 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:29 pm
Posts: 26
Lincoln Penn wrote:

I have no time for projects that are stagnant or, worse, going backward.


But you seem to have plenty of time to add negativity to this thread.
Get over yourself. Unless you can say something positive about the UP steam program
Stop posting.

Dan
(Not afraid to post my real name)


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