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 Post subject: Re: ASTM to Study Park Trains Standards
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:13 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:29 pm
Posts: 7
First, theme parks are looking to LIMIT THEIR LIABILITY. Without a set of standards, no matter how well they do something, they will always face the legal question of liability, "why didn't you do it better?" By having a set of regulations or criteria, operators can either meet or exceed the standard, or in a worse case be found sub-standard.

Second, theme parks are an accident looking for a place to happen. I was working at Six Flags/Astroworld 1984 when two trains operating on 5,180 ft of track collided. The Waterworld train ran into the rear Astroworld Train. This accident injured scores and sent others to the hospital. The Astroworld train was hit so hard that it knocked the rear cars up and off their trucks. The Waterworld engine had its tender pushed up under the locomotive, and the Astroworld engine was knocked loose from its train set and sent careening down the track like a croquet ball (I was on that engine)! The locomotives and train set were miraculously repaired and operating the next day as if nothing happened, and a sophisticated proximity switch signal system was installed within days. The point here is that it took an accident (read between the lines $$$) to get a huge and dangerous problem resolved.

Same theme park about six years later the firebox of one of the locomotives had severe mud burn from improper water treatment and blowdowns--inspite of the fact they used softened water. Boiler washes were infrequent at best and hurried.

Looking back--I wasn't well qualified/trained to be running steam locomotives. None of us really were. We were just young and inexperienced. We meant well, had a huge amount of pride in what we did, but just were not sufficiently educated in good, sound locomotive practices like blowing down, water treatment, sanding flues, proper inspections, and so forth. We showed up and ran the locomotives like we were paid to do. If it broke, the mechanics fixed it.

The old cliche that someone "knows enough to be dangerous" is true for the theme parks. The mechanics mean well, and are often good at making repairs, but fall short in bridging the maintenance and operational side.

As an aside, after leaving Astroworld I have since worked at the Essex Steam Train, Austin Steam Train, and Ft. Worth & Western (now Grapevine) operating steam locomotives. The best and most thorough training I received was at The Essex Steam Train.

Adopting a set of standardized practices will help the entertainment industry operate more safely. Having accountability for training and operating boilers is paramount to safety, both for the crews and the guests.

Not having standard practices is a temptation to "thrifty" operators. By creating a set of measurable conditions, you eliminate part of this temptation. Now, it won't stop some operators from "pencil whipping" the inspection forms, but their liability likewise escalates, and many of them recognize that fact and will think twice.

While some people characterize the amusement park narrow gauge railroads as "Toy Trains" --however, they are every bit as dangerous and deadly as any mainline steam locomotive if it blows up. In fact, chances are that at an amusement park boiler explosion would be even more deadly because of the large number of guests in such close proximity.


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 Post subject: Re: ASTM to Study Park Trains Standards
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:14 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1046
Location: Youngstown, OH
Does anyone know if the ASTM issued standards for amusement park steam locomotives yet?

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Rick Rowlands
Steel Industry Preservationist, Narrow Gauge Railroader and ALCOhaulic


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 Post subject: Re: ASTM to Study Park Trains Standards
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:16 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:06 am
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Location: NE PA
http://www.astmnewsroom.org/default.aspx?pageid=3605
Standard Practice for Permanent Amusement Railway Ride Tracks and Related Devices
Active Standard ASTM F2960

Mike Tillger


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 Post subject: Re: ASTM to Study Park Trains Standards
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:48 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:34 pm
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
I have a copy through my university library, but I won't post it due to copyright. However, if you have any questions on the contents, I can take a look.

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Steven Harrod
Lektor
Danmarks Tekniske Universitet
Institut for Systemer, Produktion, og Ledelse


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 Post subject: Re: ASTM to Study Park Trains Standards
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:12 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 10:52 pm
Posts: 311
Location: Ventura County, CA
Hot Metal wrote:
Does anyone know if the ASTM issued standards for amusement park steam locomotives yet?


I don't believe it is. It was part of the subcommittee meetings last week in Fort Lauderdale. I had to leave before the session was over, but they were talking about putting the draft out to a vote, confident it would not pass, but in order to get comments.

Greg

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Greg Ramsey
US Navy Trackage SME
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 Post subject: Re: ASTM to Study Park Trains Standards
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:10 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 10:52 pm
Posts: 311
Location: Ventura County, CA
For those folks out there that are interested in helping with the ASTM's efforts I've attached to this post the future meeting schedule as available at last weeks meetings.

All ASTM meetings are open, there is no fee to attend. and non-members are welcome to participate.

The next meeting is in Hong King in June 2015, but I suspect the next meeting with the railroad sub-committees will be the October 2015 meeting in San Diego.

Greg


Attachment:
File comment: ASTM F24 Committee future meeting dates
ASTM F24 Future Meeting Schedule.pdf [268.74 KiB]
Downloaded 90 times

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Greg Ramsey
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 Post subject: Re: ASTM to Study Park Trains Standards
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:39 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:54 am
Posts: 789
Location: Califoothills / Midwest Prairies
Greetings,
I am working with an informal group looking to restore Anacortes Railway #1 to operable service. We have many steps to go before this happens, but a logical evaluation of the locomotive, a former Porter air motor in 18" gauge, is necessary. The first phase of operations is imagined to be insular, but future phases would cross public roadways.

I have read and heard from reliable sources that anything under 24" in gauge is not the concern of FRA. Would it be sensible to follow these standards, anyway, for Park train regulations, or would simply working with the state boiler inspector be the best thing to do? Will information about locomotives and boilers be forthcoming from this ASTM effort? We will need to develop a plan and budget for the restoration, and to design our inspection appropriately.

Thanks much,
Olin Anderson
Soaking in the Wet Side of Washington


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 Post subject: Re: ASTM to Study Park Trains Standards
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:56 am 

Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:45 pm
Posts: 70
Hi Olin,

You are correct, the FRA regulations only apply to equipment running on track 24" gauge or greater. The standard being developed by ASTM will include recommended practice for maintenance on boilers, but for now I would consult the section on inspections in the National Board of Boiler and Pressure Vessel Inspectors' National Board Inspection Code (NBIC). I would recommend contacting the Washington Department of Labor and Industries to find out what they will need to issue a Permit to Operate for the boiler. Washington has many pieces of historic steam equipment operating in their jurisdiction so I'm sure they will be an excellent resource of information.

The 2015 Edition of the ASME Code, Section I, available now, will include the new Part PL, Rules for the Construction of Locomotive Boilers which may also be a good resource of information.

Good luck on your project!


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 Post subject: Re: ASTM to Study Park Trains Standards
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:30 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 6:27 am
Posts: 139
Delighted to see movement on the Anacortes railroad. I saw it a few years ago and the group brought out the locomotive for folks on our boat to see. Restoring the railroad would be wonderful and would make a great addition to the town.

ASTM will be a standard that will have no authority unless adopted by a jurisdiction. The standard will be loosely based on FRA rules with accommodations for the smaller size. As Paul suggests, talking to whoever will have jurisdiction is the first step. Beyond that, taking the most conservative approach should ensure compliance with any standard. As time passes, ASME, National Board, FRA, and ASTM are becoming much closer in requirements which should make compliance somewhat easier.

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 Post subject: Re: ASTM to Study Park Trains Standards
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:54 am 

Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:54 am
Posts: 789
Location: Califoothills / Midwest Prairies
Paul, Lynn,
Thank you for your replies and information. It confirms my hunch that a conservative approach may be wisest. We are definitely going to be in touch with the WA Dept of Labor and Industries, but I wanted to conduct this activity so it would not need to be redone (or initiate heavy repairs) to meet a possible upcoming standard.

We will report back on another thread with updates. The currently informal group has established a web presence at:
http://www.anacortesrailway.org

Regards,
Olin


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 Post subject: Re: ASTM to Study Park Trains Standards
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:36 am 

Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:54 am
Posts: 789
Location: Califoothills / Midwest Prairies
It has been published. For $64 it is yours. -Olin

"Standard Practice for Permanent Amusement Railway Ride Tracks and Related Devices"
ASTM F2960 - 15
http://www.astm.org/Standards/F2960.htm

Quote:
Significance and Use

4.1 The user of this standard shall be required to review and comply with the referenced “core” ASTM F24 Committee standards in 2.1 of this standard. Modified or alternate requirements to those standards may be required in this standard.

4.1.1 Amusement railway sub-systems may be built to various scales, that is, rolling stock maybe to one scale and the track to another but have common gauge. The railroad’s documentation or maintenance manuals shall identify the railroad standards of the respective subsystems/interfaces.

4.1.2 The Designer/Engineer’s requirements shall consider the track equipment manufacturer’s and rolling stock manufacturer’s requirements and shall determine their appropriate interfaces.

1. Scope

1.1 This standard applies to design, manufacture, installation, operation, maintenance, and inspection of permanent amusement railway ride(s) that have a track gauge greater than or equal to 12 in. (305 mm) measured between the heads of the rails and their related devices and facilities, for example, bridges, tunnels, and signal support structures, excluding rolling stock. This “track” specific standard provides requirements which are not covered in the “core” or “supporting” standards of the ASTM F24 committee.

1.2 This standard does not apply to track of rides, such as roller coasters, that may resemble railways, but may fall within the scope of Practice F2291-11 or Practice F1159-02 and does not apply to funiculars as defined in ANSI B77.2 or BS EN 1907.

1.3 This standard does not apply to Amusement Railway Rides and their associated track, devices and facilities that are manufactured and intended for use as a portable amusement ride or attraction.

1.4 This standard does not apply to permanently installed amusement railway rides and tourist railways, and their associated track, devices and facilities that are under the jurisdiction of the United States Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) in whole or part, or national equivalent.

1.5 This standard does not purport to address all of the safety concerns, if any, associated with its use. It is the responsibility of the user of this standard to establish appropriate safety and health practices and determine the applicability of regulatory limitations prior to use.


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 Post subject: Re: ASTM to Study Park Trains Standards
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:52 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:15 am
Posts: 459
The wording kinda makes me worry for our situation as it sounds like it maybe a case to case or a state to state decision.

1.1 This standard applies to design, manufacture, installation, operation, maintenance, and inspection of permanent amusement railway ride(s) that have a track gauge greater than or equal to 12 in.
...
1.4 This standard does not apply to permanently installed amusement railway rides and tourist railways, and their associated track, devices and facilities that are under the jurisdiction of the United States Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) in whole or part, or national equivalent.

Is it just me or does it sound like insular operations within Museum/Historical societies could fall under this ASTM standard as an `Amusement Ride' or am I just reading too much into it? Since insular operations are exempt (which some Bureaucrats could read as `does not fall under control of FRA') and give rides to people for the amusement and enjoyment of visitors.

From those of you that know the FRA regs better than me, under the FRA regulations, if you cross a public road you are not exempt, but if you cross over your own driveway are you exempt or not?

Rich C.


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 Post subject: Re: ASTM to Study Park Trains Standards
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:04 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1046
Location: Youngstown, OH
I just downloaded the standard on amusement park railway track. From what I have read so far, my own track standards already exceed everything in the standard. The entire standard will become our track construction manual so to speak.

In Ohio our 24" gauge operation is regulated by the Ohio Dept. of Agriculture, and they have adopted the ASTM amusement park standards. J&L 58's boiler is under the jurisdiction of the Ohio Historical Boiler Licensing Board. $50 per year for the boiler fees, $310 per year for the amusement park fees or about $360 in direct regulatory costs per year.

There are some paperwork requirements brought about by lumping us into the same category as real amusement park rides but I can work on that over the winter. Maintenance checklist, operating instruction manual, rules of operation etc. All necessary documents to have even if not required.

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