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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:22 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
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Definitive study by an EE (Dave Klepper) had determined that a GG1 could be operated on 600VDC, with its existing motors. I don't remember seeing anything that a competent trolley preservationist couldn't design to make this function. You would of course not run all the motors, to avoid the giant sucking sound, but for the typical in-house running around, it would be a GG1 and it would be under power as a locomotive.

A better approach (again according to Dave Klepper) is to adapt the components from up to three AEM-7s to make the locomotive "NEC-compatible". Some arrangement would have to be reached with Amtrak regarding the parts involved to ensure they would never be offered for resale other than as scrap. Obviously this is more to produce an 'excursion' locomotive (read in the sense of 'tourist railway') than a historic-preservation GG1 -- but with so many locomotives preserved, and so few restored, I think 'rodding' one of them is appropriate.

There were, in 1977, at least six companies in the United States capable of fixing what was then called the 'crystallization' problem in the GG1 cast frames. It is easier to do this now than it was then.

It is possible that one of the electrical engineering companies, like ASEA, could be induced into designing and then donating or subsidizing a 'new-build' set of components to replace the transformers and other 25-cycle components. I doubt it would pay to do this as any kind of for-profit job.

Of course, I'd like to see whether or not a modern version of a GG2 could be built (with the higher drivers and 428-A motors as used in the DD2 prototype), done with 60-Hz compatible running gear components. That is perhaps closer to the 'mission' that the T1 Trust has taken on ... and the DD2, while laudable as a design exercise, had many of the same problems the T1 was rumored to have ... and is a great piece of unbuilt history (being one of the three types of locomotive proposed for the Harrisburg-Pittsburgh electrification circa 1943...)

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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:59 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:52 pm
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Hi,

The Strasburg has a section of its run-around at Leaman Place on one of the former PRR mainline tracks (IIRC). Maybe a couple of miles of relaid ex-PRR track alignment to connect, say, Leaman place and Lancaster for GG1 demonstration (maybe 25-30 miiles?). Slow speed of course to keep trackwork maintenence low.

Why anyone not a railfan would want to ride behind steam and transfer to GG1 electric to get to Amtrak/SEPTA and the national passenger network, I'm not sure but it would be possible.

Doug vV


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:55 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:24 pm
Posts: 103
Dougvv wrote:
Hi,

Why anyone not a railfan would want to ride behind steam and transfer to GG1 electric to get to Amtrak/SEPTA and the national passenger network, I'm not sure but it would be possible.

Doug vV


No, they'd just chase without giving a dime. Sad truth of today. Better photos at less cost.
Trespassing? As long as they get the photo. Believe me, many will stop at nothing.


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:46 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 3:07 pm
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The mention above of the PRR's planned Harrisburg to Conway electrification brings to mind several Westinghouse/BLW proposals for the required motive power. One of the more interesting concepts from the historical standpoint was a 2-D+D-2 loco with the same carbody styling of the GG1. Short time rating of something like 7500 HP. No PRR class was shown, did PRR ever have a letter for the 4-8-0 type? Maybe a "UU-1?"

Other late 40s proposals centered around the Centipede diesel styling and running gear, including an A-B-A version rated at 12,000 HP. Imagine what that thing would have done to drawbars of that era. By the early 1950s the proposals were hood units using large numbers of the GSC 3 axle 3 motor diesel truck as used on BLH AS616, etc. The most common form was the wheel arrangement of N&W 2300 but with AC propulsion. Like the Centipede versions these came in both A and B units. The general form was predictive of the later E44 "bricks."


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:20 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:52 pm
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Hi,

The 4-8-4 type you are taking about was really a 4-4+4-4. It is the DD2 that is discussed above. Note that one (1) DD2 was built as an experimental unit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRR_DD2

As I understand it, the success of the GG1 and the non-expansion of electrified territory west of Harrisburg killed the idea.

The DD2 (5800) was built in 1938 and was scrapped in 1962. "Rivets" GG1 4800 was built in 1934 and the first follow on unit had a welded body in 1935.

FWIW.

As a "modern" aside, the electrification from Harrisburg to Pittsburg was studied in the 1970s (I do not recal exactly when but I believe it was in the early-mid 1970s). The proposed electrics were state of the art at the time. They would have been dual mode diesel-electric/diesel (similer to the New Haven FL9s). They were to be based on the SD40 design from GM. The hood was to be lengthend to allow room for the pantographs and other items. One of these dual mode units would be able to leave Harrisburg on electric power and if the electrification had only gotten to, say, Mount Union, the pans could be dropped and the diesel started for the rest of the trip. So the electrification between Harrisbug and Pittsburg would not have to completed all the way before electric savings could be obtained.

I beliece CR nixed the idea because the rest of the electrification was owned by Amtrak. The charge for running freight over Amtrak was high and so CR ultimately let the electric freight drop in 1982 (equipment trust expiration for the E44s) and started using the ex-Reading line to New York instead of the less curvature less grade ex-PRR freight line.

Doug vV

Doug vV


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:24 pm 

Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:45 am
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Location: Illinois
David H. Hamley wrote:
The mention above of the PRR's planned Harrisburg to Conway electrification brings to mind several Westinghouse/BLW proposals for the required motive power. One of the more interesting concepts from the historical standpoint was a 2-D+D-2 loco with the same carbody styling of the GG1. Short time rating of something like 7500 HP. No PRR class was shown, did PRR ever have a letter for the 4-8-0 type? Maybe a "UU-1?"



Something like this?:
Attachment:
mm1.jpg
mm1.jpg [ 35.16 KiB | Viewed 1956 times ]

Or these?:
Attachment:
mm3a1.jpg
mm3a1.jpg [ 33.19 KiB | Viewed 1947 times ]
Attachment:
mm3b.jpg
mm3b.jpg [ 31.56 KiB | Viewed 1947 times ]

Jeff

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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:57 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:52 pm
Posts: 909
Hi,

I thought the American Steam Syndycate had heating coils in the water. That would heve allowed it to be electric-steam locomotive.

I do not thik the PRR had Mastadon 4-8-0s but they did have the 4-8-2 M class. how about an M&M1?

Doug vV


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:18 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 3:07 pm
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The first image, with two cabs, was essentially what appeared in the 1944 Westinghouse Electric/BLW proposal. The accompanying text did not mention any other configurations, but did specify MU and oil fired boiler.


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:33 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:52 pm
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Sorry, I misread it - you wrote 2-D+D-2 and I read it as DD2. Dumb.
Doug vV


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:18 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
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The 1943 proposal I saw had three listings; it did not contain information on specific wheel arrangements but did give horsepower ratings. A little detective work using the unit power of the 428-A traction motor revealed that the likely wheel arrangements were 2-B-B-2 (DD2), 2-C-C-2 (what I have taken to calling the GG2) and something with eight double-motored axles per unit, likely to be either 2-D-D-2+2-D-D-2 or 2-D-D-0+0-D-D-2 (think two of the 2-D-D-2s given an ether condensation) to run an a married pair - these last being assigned to either pusher or snapper service. If anyone has a copy of the tunnel alignment map from this proposal - let me know where it is. I had one and lost it!

Body style of all these units would NOT be the Loewy GG1 noses, but the simplified (and to me not as attractive) look of the DD2 and V1.

I have a copy of GE's "Looking Ahead with Electric Motive Power" (from 1948) which reatures a highly interesting double-cab "7500 hp" electric - with PRR 5-stripe attire and substantial 'front porches' on each end. Two interesting details: the cab styling is recognizably Sharknose, and the wheel arrangement (hold onto your hat!) is B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B (!). Presumably this would be done with some combination of span bolsters and laterally-sliding trucks as on the triple-truck rectifier locomotives ... I would think it highly likely that an actual production locomotive would be a double-unit B-B+B-B with a less heroically rigid carbody (specified as 117'2" LOA, 90' carbody). Instantaneous (I think - they say 'maximum') is 10,000 hp, which seems ample for any single locomotive, perhaps unsurprisingly on 44" wheels.

As with the wartime PRR proposal, this locomotive was part of a 'modular' spec, in this case using the same basic B truck for engines from B-B up. This would surely be how power for a Harrisburg-Conway electrification would be specified in a GE proposal by this date...

If I recall correctly, the DD2 and the GE locomotives in the wartime proposals had 72" drivers and the twin-motor quill setup. A "Centipede" proposal would have had to be made in the period corresponding to the V1 (which used four-axle cast frames) or the Essl prototype Baldwin that became the 'prototype' for the Centipede chassis - these are set up for small wheels (the V1 main 'drivers' were 40") and either mechanical or DC-traction-motor power ... which would be unlikely for a PRR 11kV proposal as of that era. (The E2/E3 rectifier units came later, and as we know were not amazingly successful).

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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:13 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:32 pm
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robertmacdowell wrote:
(snipped for brevity)
Unfortunately, I find a dominant number of railfans do not know the technicals. That in and of itself is not a problem; it's that they do not CARE about the technicals, in fact look at the technicals with disgust, something that impedes them essentially "starting from scratch" with the technologies they do know. Fine, buy an old SD40 and make a GG1 body out of fibreglass, but stay away from real GG1's.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind knowing the technicals. Climbing around in old MU cars most of my youth, the ways in which things were done in them fascinated me - even though a lot of it was non-functional in a locomotive-hauled non-electric enviroment. Does anyone still know these old trades from their Wilmington days? Is there enough surviving pieces in these oft-looted units to build documentation on how it was done? Maybe this would be a useful preservation effort for low cost, just documenting what was...


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 2:03 pm 
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Overmod wrote:
Quote:
I have a copy of GE's "Looking Ahead with Electric Motive Power" (from 1948) which reatures a highly interesting double-cab "7500 hp" electric - with PRR 5-stripe attire and substantial 'front porches' on each end. Two interesting details: the cab styling is recognizably Sharknose, and the wheel arrangement (hold onto your hat!) is B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B (!).


Presumably this describes this proposed locomotive, designated as A-C:
http://www.railarchive.net/wecbook/wec26.htm
However, this illustration appears in a Westinghouse (not GE) publication from the same period, which may have been distributed at the Chicago Railroad Fair of 1948-49.

The book also pictures the idea for another locomotive of the GG1 arrangement, but with styling that looks more like the streamstyled version of the Milwaukee bi-polars:
http://www.railarchive.net/wecbook/wec24.htm

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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:35 pm 

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I have not the slightest idea how I came to type "GE" there, when even my copy of the locomotive picture has "Westinghouse, 1948" in it. Comes of having to run multiple computers with not enough brain, I suppose. As Dr. Leonard notes, that's just the section title (p.32) not the full name of the 'book'.

Since you were my original source for this report, it's more than fitting that you point out the error!

(Something else I remember this book being notorious for is artwork of the 4-8-4 version of the direct-drive turbine locomotive -- it's well worth perusing and probably saving a reference copy...)

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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:14 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:52 pm
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Hi,

GG1s 4800-4814 were built by GE. 4815-4938 were built by Junita (PRR).

Those built by Junita were a mix of GE and Westinghouse electronics.

Reference Keystone Steam and Electric by William Edson 1974.

FWIW.

Doug vV


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:06 pm 
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R. M. Ellsworth wrote,
Quote:
Comes of having to run multiple computers with not enough brain, I suppose.

No one would ever legitimately accuse you, sir, of having "not enough brain." Your comments are always highly informative.

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