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 Post subject: Re: All Dressed Up and No Place to Go (locomotives)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:01 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:10 pm
Posts: 950
I'm in Superheater's corner here. While I grew up riding Iron Horse Rambles, 759 and 1286 trips in the 60's, I recognize that big, fast mainline trips are almost a thing of the past. I'd be much happier seeing two or three smaller engines under steam in one place rather than one big one. In my opinion, the smaller engines, like 26 or 43, are much more approachable, too.

With regard to 790 working the Moscow trips, it would probably be okay, especially if some sort of flange lubricator could be devised for the rear drivers when operating in reverse. Back in the day, not every location had a turntable or wye available, and it certainly was pretty common to see engines running in reverse. heck, I've even seen films of Reading T-1's running backward while shoving a train up the Locust Summit grade!


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 Post subject: Re: All Dressed Up and No Place to Go (locomotives)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:10 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:49 pm
Posts: 94
Location: San Jose, CA
LVRR2095 wrote:
Add SP 2472 to the list

Keith


Really? 2472 just ran trips on Niles Canyon Railway over Labor Day weekend.


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 Post subject: Re: All Dressed Up and No Place to Go (locomotives)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:26 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 237
Superheater - Mr. Tillger is a gentleman, is very knowledgeable, and is a great source of practical information. As good of a "go to guy" to have as any.

Mr. Laepple beat me to it in pointing out the benefits of some of the smaller locomotives. I think the little ones are sometimes somewhat frightened by the larger steam engines (although when I was little I'd practically rub my hands together, break out a creepy grin, an emit a loud evil "woohahahaha!"). They find the smaller tank Engines more approachable and less threatening. I guess this is one of the great attractions of Thomas in that he is perceived by the smaller people as being approachable.

Mr. Laepple - interesting observation Re: the T-1, but I do not understand the applicability to this since we are discussing locomotives that lack trailing trucks being run backwards for longer periods over positive and negative grades and curves and not just as helpers. This could be due to my lack of technical knowledge. Also, would a flange lubricator interfere with traction or could the lubricant be kept off the railhead?


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 Post subject: Re: All Dressed Up and No Place to Go (locomotives)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:39 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
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Location: southeastern USA
Let's stipulate that there are many locomotives at Steamtown that could be very useful depending on circumstances. I'm not unimpressed with the impact even a tiny little sustainable 0-4-0T can have on ridership and public interest....... NHVRR has proven that over the past decade. However, Steamtown has made their choices and raised earmarked funds and if we end up with a pacific and 0-6-0 that's wonderful, and probably plenty. I'm very happy with those choices, and the possible programming available with them. if I lived nearby, I'd be there supporting it in person.

Back to not site specific examples of locomotives close to available with no practical reason to be completed....... well, most of the big ones that we used to see and don't anymore. The Gramling road show is doing the most traveling steam production with small portable power, and Leviathan seems to be making a shorter set of visits. So, do we want to include small guys along with the mainline examples?

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 Post subject: Re: All Dressed Up and No Place to Go (locomotives)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:41 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:10 pm
Posts: 950
Mr. Yard, I take your point about the T-1's. That was a brain fail on my part. However, as i said, there were numerous situations back in the day that required engines without trailing trucks to operate in reverse for some distance.

Not to hijack this thread, but flange lubrication can be accomplished without the use of materials that would cause loss of traction for subsequent trains. The easiest might be a water bath for the flange utilizing a spray of water on the wheel or the rail. This technique (on the rail) was sometimes used back in the day to wash sand off the rail after passage of the engine to reduce friction while working upgrade. There are also various chemical products that could be mechanically applied directly to the flange corner of the wheel.


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 Post subject: Re: All Dressed Up and No Place to Go (locomotives)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:03 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 237
Mr. Laepple - so you are envisioning something that will lubricate but will basically dry up or run down the side of the rail instead of sticking around more like an oil would. Very interesting. Thanks. Also, I appreciate your practical point of view, but perhaps someone who has not had the opportunity to experience as much mainline steam may have a different perspective. I have always been a big proponent of starting small and building from there, so starting with a tank engine or a lighter duty locomotive for shorter less challenging trips has always made the most sense to me as a preservation business model.

Superheater - Now that you mentioned it, maybe my original question should have been geared more towards the economics of 759 and 3713 compared to 3713 and 2317. This way there are two locomotives available that can handle the trips without any assist and that look different to the average person. So, in hindsight I incorrectly expressed my cost question. It should have been written 759 and 3713 compared to 3713 and 2317.

It is probably a good bet that 759, 3713, and 2317 are all closer to operability than the average Park locomotive.


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 Post subject: Re: All Dressed Up and No Place to Go (locomotives)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:30 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2076
we should add B&LE 643 to that list, but maybe he could fire it up and run it on a super short length of track.....or just run it on air...

see what a simple question brings up heh

We've seen 759 go, maybe we should hope for 763, while we have 765 very active.

There may be an even bigger list of engines in the wannabe running but just can't quite get there yet because of restoration efforts in progress that may be slow but still in progress.


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 Post subject: Re: All Dressed Up and No Place to Go (locomotives)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:21 am 

Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:31 am
Posts: 399
In regards to Steamtown, Trap Rock No. 43 is one of my favorite engines in the park, but I don’t see much reason to invest the time and money needed to get her running. I could see CN #47 replacing the No. 26 Baldwin when the time comes, but why? BLW 26 is completely rebuilt from top to bottom, and unless a major issue develops, the most reasonable thing to do would be to complete her 1472 and send her back out. And honestly 3713 will likely fall into that same category, so we may be looking at the same two steamers for quite a while (secretly I am hoping that they will paint some of the coaches in B&M colors).

There has been much discussion about which locomotive should be “next,” myself included, but it does not make sense to draw excessive funds and manpower just so a different set of builder plates can ride down the rails. I’d rather see further active preservation of the static collection, because Lord knows it needs it. And that is not a complaint, I am well aware of the budgetary and staffing issues at SNHS and they really are doing a fair job, given what they have to work with and the standards that their work is required to meet. Hopefully, once the newly formed “friends of” group is up and running, the type of volunteer work that we saw with the 565 can begin again in earnest.

I do like the idea of creating a national steam management plan. I see no reason to have every surviving NPR berk or Reading T1 operating at the same time. It is cannibalistic and wasteful, and in this day and age we really should have our act together in this regard. The obvious choice to put this together is the NRHS, as they could have the power to contribute financially via their membership to projects that fit into the scope of such a plan. Imagine if all kinds of resources were on tap, not just funding but professionally managed volunteer groups of tradesmen, engineers, project coordinators, etc.

One more thing to think about; if the NRHS did set up such a resource, and they provided both in-kind and cash contributions, it would only be wise to do so at the point where they now have a vested interest in the project in question. Such an interest would allow them to claim ownership of the equipment in the event of project stagnation. While having equipment possibly ripped from our hands is an awful thought for most of us, how many threads have we seen complaining of one locomotive or another languishing away without proper preservation? Gone (mostly) would be the days of owners who refuse to sell, woefully mismanaged projects, and the inevitable end – the scrapping of viable equipment.

My two cents.


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 Post subject: Re: All Dressed Up and No Place to Go (locomotives)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:43 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:08 pm
Posts: 254
Location: Western Railroad Museum - Rio Vista
psa188 wrote:
LVRR2095 wrote:
Add SP 2472 to the list

Keith


Really? 2472 just ran trips on Niles Canyon Railway over Labor Day weekend.


Golden Gate Railroad Museum, owner of 2472, had leased space from Pacific Locomotive Association for the last 9 years. GGRM moved to Niles Canyon after it lost its location in San Francisco. The lease will run out next year after both associations were unable to mutually agree to extend the lease for another five years.

GGRM could operate 2472 at any time in the future that does not conflict with PLA operation in Niles Canyon until the lease runs out. So 2472 definitely has a place to run at the present time.


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 Post subject: Re: All Dressed Up and No Place to Go (locomotives)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:42 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2447
Location: S.F. Bay Area
EDM wrote:
A national fleet of open window coaches, with roller bearings, tightlocks and modern air, would be nice too, but that is another can of worms.

Grats! You're the first to mention the root of the problem. Say what you will, at least NKP 587 and SP 2472 are "trapped" on Class II railroads containing a respectable fleet of usable coaches.

I wish someone would take Lackawannas, South Shores, Harrimans or whatever overpreserved coach fleets are out there, and do what FedEx has done to the DC-10: make it their own, own a majority of the fleet, and modernize them in mass to be exactly what they need.

And the people to talk to would be FEMA.


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 Post subject: Re: All Dressed Up and No Place to Go (locomotives)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:37 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:37 pm
Posts: 219
Location: Detroit, Michigan
Interesting Thread Ladies & Gentlemen So Far…

I got see several of the steamers mention here already this year:

Steamtown NHS

Being Restored...Maybe...B&M 3713 & BLW 26 Update

Steamtown NHS (Locomotive Shop Tour), 07-26-2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yAVRNepeBU

In Storage – Next To Go Into Locomotive Shop…

Canadian Pacific 2317 & Canadian National 3254 (Museum Tour), 07-26-2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O70oTba0LNA

It’s a given these 2 steamers are next in line To Be Fixed and Operate Again after BLW 26 is all finished.

In Storage – Inside Roundhouse

Nickel Plate Road 759 (Museum Tour), 07-26-2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tMKlbFz0hY

It was just AWESOME the seeing pictures and videos of NKP 759 with NKP 765. These steamers probably having seen each other since being in service working on the Nickel Plate Road. NKP 765 performed remarkable during it’s at Streamtown. Is 759 really too large to operate again?

Lackawanna 565 (Museum Tour), 07-26-2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc-cMOnTglM

This is steamer was supposedly be restored to Cosmetic Condition. Is it really runnable?

Grand Trunk Western 6039 (Museum Tour), 07-26-2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv9YagxbExE

I personally want to see this steamer back home in the State of Michigan. Maybe Steamtown could work a deal out with S.R.I. (PM 1225) or The Henry Ford in it getting home. At least it’s being store for the moment, and was part of the Asbestos Removal Program a while back. IF it were to operate for Steamtown, at least bring it back home to Michigan for a special event once in a while. Ditto for NKP 759, let come back to Indiana & Ohio for a special events.

On Display Outdoors - Cosmetic Restored

Illinois Central 790 (Museum Tour), 07-26-2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrD0HlYqi2E

Looks very good, Lot-O-Bell Ringing can be seen here. Would I.R.M. or Monticello want this steamer back in Illinois? Is it runnable?

Reading 2124 (Museum Tour), 07-26-2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cq1LNstJ3w

How Does This T1 Compare To 2101 & 2102?
- Reading 2101 @ B&O Museum as the AFT 1, Poor Shape, Ran Last: 1979
- Reading 2102 @ R&BM Shops, Being Stored, Ran Last: Early 1990s

Of these 2 T1’s, I would think RDG 2102 has a bitter shot running again than RDG 2101.

Reading 2100 is being restored in Cleveland @ MRPS to "Operating Condition", See Fire Up! 2100 Group.

On Display Outdoors – Unrestored & In Sad Shape

Canadian National 47 (Museum Tour), 07-26-2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcxlF-EbOd0

I would hold on this steamer for Future Usage. It’s a good sizable engine that the national park could use on the NPS/Tax Dollar/Federal Budget.

Canadian Pacific 2929 (Museum Tour), 07-26-2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzsQldK-1X4

Send CPR 2929 Back To Canada! I’m sure there are Canadians that will take better care of this Rare Gem than Steamtown would.

Akron, Canton, & Youngstown 304 (Museum Tour), 07-26-2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9ebGc2kCDw

Ship To Jerry Jacobson & The Age Of Steam Roundhouse in Ohio.

Also mention here in this thread, but I didn’t see at Steamtown was this tank engine Trap Rock 43. People here are saying it’s in Somewhat Good Shape. Could be used as the Yard Hopper trains like BLW 26?

C&O Railway Heritage Center

Chesapeake & Ohio 614

I got to see C&O 614 after chasing N&W 611 during its Homecoming Run to Roanoke, VA.

Chesapeake & Ohio 614 (Museum Tour), 06-04-2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc8xP6BBt4o

CSXT has NO Desire What-So-Ever to allow this steamer over its rails. Again, CSXT Doesn’t Want Any Steam Period! C&O 614 is still painted up in Greenbrier Hotel/Southern Railway Green & Gold. Whenever VMT gets their Locomotive Shop built to house the N&W Big 3 (611, 1218, & 2156), maybe they could workout a deal with Mr. Rowland on prepping 614 for the Yellow Ribbon Express. There are also other locomotive steam shops out there that could take in 614 in such as…Steamtown NHS, NCTM (Spencer Shops), MRPS (GTW 4070 & RDG 2100), Age Of Steam Roundhouse (CPR 1293, GTW 6325, & NKP 763), FWRHS (NKP 765), & SRI (PM 1225). It was previous in stored at the Reading & Blue Northern Shops (G&M 425 & RDG 2102) in Port Clinton, PA.

SP/SSW Steamers

Southern Pacific 745

Louisiana Steam Train Association owns SP 745, and it ran last back in 2005 on KCS.

Southern Pacific 786

Austin Steam Train Association owns SP 786, and it ran last back in the late 1990s. Once it’s restored and back operating, it will be running on WATCO’s Austin & Western Railroad.

Southern Pacific 2472

Think things are still In Play with the Golden Gate Group still owning and operating this teamer. Niles Canyon is its Best Chance for the moment. SP 2472 was at Its Best when it operating as part of the Southern Pacific steam program along with SP 4449, this was all again Pre-UP Merger with SP.

SSW-Cotton Belt 819

This steamer hasn’t operated since the early 1990s. A lot like SP 2472, was at Its Best operating on SP. This engine has been under long term restoration. Arkansas Railroad Museum was recently trying an online funding website to kick start a new restoration period.

Would UP allow a Non-UP/SP Heritage steamer to operate on its mainlines?

No UP Steam Available at this time to do, just UP Diesel Trips.

Other Locomotives Mention:

Bessemer & Lake Erie 643

Could we say just another Stubborn Old Man owning a steam locomotive. I.E. Owning it, but not doing anything with it. BLE 643 had a group trying to get this engine up and running back in the day. Now is currently Landlocked at AGF Warehouse in McKees Rocks, PA. The last update on this steamer was that its owner had wanted to donated City Of Tarentum as a Park Engine. Likelyhood, it will never run again. Cosmetic Restoration at most possible. Think JJ had wanted this steamer want, but the current owner had wanted more $$$ than it was really worth.

Grand Trunk Western 6325, Nickel Plate Road 763, & Canadian Pacific 1293

Jerry Jacobson‘s GTW 6325 is in the works to operate again. I heard this steamer just needs some minor parts and repairs. NKP 763 is still in it same shape as it was back at VMT, its very rough, and needs a lot more work. CPR 1293 is their main operating steamer at AOSR for the moment. JJ is just having fun at the moment collecting more Lost & Forgotten Steamers. Once GTW 6325 is up and running will be operating on G&W’s Ohio Central. JJ still has Trackage Rights to operate on the OCRR, because he the previous owner. A lot like GTW 6039 @ Steamtown, this is another steamer I would like to see back running in its home State of Michigan. Unfortunately, ASOR isn’t open to the public. -_-

Nickel Plate Road 587

NKP 587 is another Legend of the Old NS Steam Program. It was made famous with the NS Steam Triple-Header with N&W 611 & 1218 enroute to the 1989 NRHS Asheville Convention. It last operated back in the late 1990s. Its owner ITM has been trying to restore this steamer for some time now. ITM is in an awkward situation, their trackage is Cut-Off at both ends. I.E. No Connection to Outside World. With NS running steam excursions again, I’m sure NS would welcome NKP 587 back into to fold. ITM would need to work things out with NS about them getting a NEW Track Connection. Also they would need to work it Indy DOT, which owns their track to Re-Connect Them.

SLSF-Frisco 1522

SLSF 1522 is currently on display at the Museum Of Transport in Kirkwood, MO. SLSF 1522 last ran last in 2002. SLSTA the group which previously ran the steamer unfortunately Disbanded. IF this steamer were to operate again, it would be similar to situation that of N&W 611. The last go around it was NS not VMT operating 611. Likewise for 1522 instead of SLSTA it will be MOT operating 1522. I keep hearing this steamer is in Excellent Shape.

Operating, But Not On Home Rails:

Milwaukee Road 261

MILW 261 is up and running. It will be operating this October. Are there trips or events schedule in November & December for MILW 261? As a group, they are likely going to continue doing trips with AMTK & BNSF. Trips on CP Rail in future are Questionable since CP Sidelined its Steamer: 2816

Pere Marquette 1225

PM 1225 is up and running. It will be operating this November & December on the Great Lakes Central. SRI is trying to make the steamer more FRA/AMTK Compatible, so it could travel outside of GLC Rails. AMTK-MDOT Trips are in the works for Long Term Plans. PM 1225 hasn’t been on Home Rails (Pere Marquette/C&O-CSXT) since the 1991 NRHS Huntington Convention.

Santa Fe 3415

ATSF 3415 is up and running. It is operating on the Abilene & Smokey Valley Railroad. It’s just not operating on BNSF.

Southern Pacific 4449

SP 4449 is about done with its current restoration. It should be up and running this Winter. It’s very likely they are going to continue doing trips with AMTK & BNSF. Will the Daylight make another long distance trek out east again?

Soo Line 1003

SOO 1003 is somewhat up and running. Operated last on the WATCO’s Wisconsin & Southern in 2014.

Operating In Canada, But Not On Home Rails

Canadian National 1392

CNR 1392 is a 4-6-0 10-Wheeler and is operating at Alberta Railway Museum near Edmonton, AB. It’s just not running on CN.

Canadian National 2141, “Spirit Of Kamloops”

CNR 2141 is a 2-8-0 steamer is operating for Kamloops Heritage Railway in B.C. It’s just not running on CN.

Canadian Pacific 136

CPR 136 a 4-4-0 steamer is up and running on South Simcoe Railway in Totteham, ON. It’s just not running on CP.

Canadian Pacific 3716, “Spirit Of Summerland”

CPR 3716 is up and running. Another is 2-8-0 operating in B.C. and operating for the Kettle Valley Steam Railway. Use to be paired up with CPR 2860 on BC Rail. BCR part CN nor is likely to run on CP.

Operable, But Uncertain Future

- Canadian Pacific 2816, “Empress”
- Canadian Pacific 2860, “Royal Hudson”
- Canadian National 6060
- Louisville & Nashville 152
- Northern Pacific 328
- Soo Line 2719
- Southern Pacific 1744

I’m sure there’s a few other Park Steamers, Museum Engines, & Tourist Locomotives that are worth mention that are in decent shape that have been overlooked for Potential Possibilities for Mainline Operating.

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 Post subject: Re: All Dressed Up and No Place to Go (locomotives)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:31 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5251
Location: southeastern USA
It's not possible candidates that are missing; it's opportunities for ANY of them to run on the mainline enough to recover the cost of building the program.

Back to reality......please.

_________________
"Techies never minded eating bits and jots of their work. They were grit and grease inside and out and could turn a pile of junk into a magical kingdom."

Andrea Hairston


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 Post subject: Re: All Dressed Up and No Place to Go (locomotives)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:47 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 1733
Illinois Central 790 (Museum Tour), 07-26-2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrD0HlYqi2E

Looks very good, Lot-O-Bell Ringing can be seen here. Would I.R.M. or Monticello want this steamer back in Illinois? Is it runnable?


You think they'd be willing to do a swap for LNE 207?

Note: Hypothetical question only, offered strictly for the entertainment of readers. NOT to be construed as an offer, or an official position of Steamtown or any of its partners.


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 Post subject: Re: All Dressed Up and No Place to Go (locomotives)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:20 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 710
Some on the list are privately owned....i.e. they are not public or museum property.
How do you propose to get them away from their owners.

Several listed as operable or in excellent shape are anything but.


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 Post subject: Re: All Dressed Up and No Place to Go (locomotives)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:10 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:37 pm
Posts: 1055
Location: Pacific, MO
SLSF-Frisco 1522

SLSF 1522 is currently on display at the Museum Of Transport in Kirkwood, MO. SLSF 1522 last ran last in 2002. SLSTA the group which previously ran the steamer unfortunately Disbanded. IF this steamer were to operate again, it would be similar to situation that of N&W 611. The last go around it was NS not VMT operating 611. Likewise for 1522 instead of SLSTA it will be MOT operating 1522. I keep hearing this steamer is in Excellent Shape.

In spite of what you have been told, please go back and read my post RE: 1522 again. When you have to replace a huge piece of the roof wrapper sheet, it is NOT in excellent condition. This would have to be done along with the FRA 1472 day inspection/form 4 to repair the wasted areas up there from over the years.
The whole suspension system needs to be gone through and leveled up and the engine is low in the back. This is mostly labor, but is necessary.
So whoever is putting out the news that she is in excellent condition isn't doing you a favor. I KNOW what kind of condition she is in.


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