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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:27 am 
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13 section tourist car #2427, formerly the 12S-1DR Cromwell, was sold to GN in April 1956 and used by the MofW department as #O-3167, and is line item #75 in this thread. Does anyone know when the Pacific RR Preservation Association acquired this car from (presumably) BN, or when it was deaccessioned to its current unknown owner? Or was it never actually owned by PRPA? Thanks in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:50 pm 

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Thanks for the picture. I had been informed by a former member of the PRPA that Cromwell was sold and scrapped. Well so much for that source of information.

What is the history of the baggage car coupled to Cromwell in that picture?

Robert


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:23 pm 
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BigBoy 4023 wrote:
What is the history of the baggage car coupled to Cromwell in that picture?


SP&S baggage-dynamo #91, built by Barney & Smith in 1915, which was later reassigned by BN to the MofW department as #976124, and is listed as retired in November 1975.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:26 pm 
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On Saturday, July 4th, 2015, 5th Post on Page #31, Rainier Rails wrote:
I recently received some information on 3 surviving cars which have not yet been discussed in this thread, although the identities remain a mystery at this time:

The Orrville RR Heritage Society of Orrville, OH, is apparently in the process of moving locations, the new location being that of Dabo, Incorporated. There are several cars already at the Dabo site, which are not listed on the ORHS website, and I don't know for certain if these cars are owned by ORHS itself, ORHS members, or other private parties. Specifically, the information listed 3 heavyweight Pullmans, identities unknown...It should be noted that it apparently has come up elsewhere (where exactly I don't know) that at least some, if not most, of the cars which are already in storage at Dabo might be scrapped if new owners for these cars are not found.


As posted in the Orrville RHS derailment thread, the 2 (not 3) Pullmans at the Dabo property have been identified:

415. Trenton (Lot #4699, Plan #2410H, 1923, 12S-1DR)--sold to PRR #8960 (1948) redesignated dormitory #6718 (1950) transferred to MofW department as bunk car #492908 (when??) acquired by Dabo, Inc. (when??) Dabo acquired by Orrville RHS (2015)

416. Parkesburg (Lot #4894, Plan #3410A, 1925, 12S-1DR, ex-Martha Washington [1st])--sold to PRR #8868 (1948) renamed from Martha Washington (1st) to Parkesburg (1951) transferred to MofW department as bunk car #492859 (1962) acquired by Dabo, Inc. (when??) Dabo acquired by Orrville RHS (2015)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:33 am 
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Another Survivor:

417. AT&SF MofW bunk car #196813, currently owned by the Timber Heritage Association of Eureka, CA. A video of this car turned up in my YouTube subscription feed on Monday evening, showing the car being moved from storage in Windsor to storage in Schellville, with the cooperation of the Northwestern Pacific (the NWP's President is a THA member). The car had been stored in Windsor in circa 1999-2000 by Wes & Cindy Vail.

The #196813 appears to be a 12S-1DR car, and I did a quick run-through of Wayner's heavyweight Pullman book, but the car's current number didn't turn up; there was 1 car acquired by AT&SF which didn't have a MofW number listed (which would've been applied at acquisition), and several cars which were initially placed in the #11xx-series for use as coaches, and many of these were later transferred to the MofW department, but the MofW numbers for these cars are not included. Does anyone know which car this is? Thanks in advance!

Here's a link to the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-j8muJWrUA

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:56 pm 

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The car is either a Plan 2410D or 2410E so that should narrow things down a bit, though maybe not that well. The single windows in the aisle area and the arched ends at the top does help just a little to narrow down what to look for.

Quote:
...there was 1 car acquired by AT&SF which didn't have a MofW number listed (which would've been applied at acquisition),...


That is not necessarily true. Depending on the condition of the car and the needs of the railroad it was not unusual for some cars to have sat for several years while the railroad decided what to do with them, be it rebuilt for use, used in MofW service or stripped of parts and scrapped.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:28 pm 

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Location: Morganton, N.C.
Doing a quick search of Tom Madden's Pullman Car Construction Records I was able to turn up just one Pullman Plan 2410D car and no Plan 2410E cars, a car formerly named Burdette, which was sold to the ATSF in June of '56. According to Wayner's book the car was numbered 198652 which places the car close to the number of the car shown in the video.

The car's lack of AC ducts is a good indication that it served as a Tourist sleeper under Pullman's ownership, carrying the TC number 2602 before being sold to the Santa Fe. The question I now have is how accurate is Wayner's book??? Might this have actually been what the car was numbered??? We may never know for sure...

(Might there be a book on ATSF Maintenance of Way equipment which might speak more clearly to what various cars' numbers and histories might be???)

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:09 am 
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I keep intending to type up additional posts with further info gleaned from the "Private Passenger Car Annual Volume One: 1980", which was compiled by David L. Briggs and published by W. David Randall's RPC Publications, and finally have one ready to go:

On Monday, January 6th, 2014, 4th Post on Page #4, Tim Andrews wrote:
[section removed]They are shown on the website for the Railway Museum of Greater Cincinnati (in Latonia, KY) along with:

Lake Mansfield 10-2-1 1926
Overdale 14 sec
Jovita 12-1 1914
On Monday, January 6th, 2014, 7th Post on Page #4, Rainier Rails wrote:
[s.r.]125. Lake Mansfield (Lot #4996, Plan #3585A, 1926, 10S-2C-1DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Royal American Shows (1958) to RY Mus of Greater Cincinnati

126. Overdale (Lot #6126, Plan #3958A, 1928, 14S)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Royal American Shows (1958) to RY Mus of Greater Cincinnati

127. Jovita (Lot #4249, Plan #2410A, 1914/42, 12S-1DR)--Tourist #2386 sold to Royal American Shows (1948) to RY Mus of Greater Cincinnati[s.r.]
On Saturday, August 30th, 2014, 7th Post on Page #22, Rainier Rails wrote:
[s.r.]125. Lake Mansfield (Lot #4996, Plan #3585A, 1926, 10S-1DR-2C)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Royal American Shows (1958) sold to Tibley, San Antonio & Cypress-Orange Belt (when??) sold to RMGC (1979)

126. Overdale (Lot #6126, Plan #3958A, 1928, 14S)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Royal American Shows (1958) sold to Tibley, San Antonio & Cypress-Orange Belt (when??) sold to RMGC (1979)

127. Jovita (Lot #4249, Plan #2410A, 1914/42, 12S-1DR)--Tourist #2386--sold to Royal American Shows (1948) sold to Tibely, San Antonio & Cypress-Orange Belt (when??) sold to RMGC (1979)[s.r.]

The former owner should actually be spelled Trilby, San Antonio & Cypress, not Tibley. Briggs lists that the TSA&C/Orange Belt was located in Webster, FL, and that they had:

David L. Briggs wrote:
Moved from San Antonio, Fla. during 1978; all equipment at San Antonio listed below may not have made the move to Webster.

So, the question is, the RY Museum of Greater Cincinnati's website lists that these 3 cars were acquired in 1979; could that mean that the cars were listed for sale directly before, during, or directly after the move from San Antonio to Webster? i.e., were these 3 cars left in San Antonio as they had been placed for sale/because a sale was pending to the RY Exposition Co. (now the RMGC), or were they moved to Webster and then listed for sale? Or is it possible that the cars were actually sold in 1978, but that they weren't physically moved up from Florida until the following year?

Briggs lists another ex-RAS Pullman which was owned by the TSA&C/Orange Belt: a 26 seat parlor-1DR, listed with the name Clearview. The problem is, the Clearview has already been identified as a surviving car, but with a completely different history:

266. Clearview (Lot #3986, Plan #2416, 1912, 1DR-plr [26], PRR)--sold to NP and rebuilt to 88 seat coach #634 (1941) to NRHS Puget Sound Chapter-Puget Sound RY Historical Association (1968) to Lake Whatcom RY (1971)

So, the question is, was the car owned by the Orange Belt really a former Pullman parlor with the name Clearview? If that's the case, then it obviously wasn't the all-steel Clearview that was sold to the NP, but an earlier car (wood or composite) with the same name. If not formerly the Clearview as owned by Pullman, then was this name applied by either RAS or the Orange Belt, and it therefore had a different name under Pullman ownership? Or is it a third option, i.e. a misidentified history, and it wasn't built as a parlor but something else (although this doesn't necessarily solve the name problem, as Pullman only had one all-steel car which carried the name Clearview).

On Wednesday, November 5th, 2014, 6th Post on Page #26, Rainier Rails wrote:
374. Hidden Lake (1st) (Lot #4770, Plan #3585A, 1924, 10S-1DR-2C, Oriental Limited)--sold to ERIE (1948) converted (1949??) to business car #6 renumbered (when??) to #4 to EL #4 sold (when??) to Hoboken Shore RR sold (when??) to Delaware Otsego-Cooperstown & Charlotte Valley as CACV #4 Otsego Lake sold (when??) to private ownership and moved to the Wortendyke neighborhood of Midland Park, NJ, next to the depot, where Newtown Rd crosses the NYS&W (MP 26.15).

Briggs lists that the Hoboken Shore was abandoned in June 1978, and the earliest 2 photos I located of the car on the CACV were taken in July 1979, so that gives a timeframe for when Delaware Otsego acquired this car. Does anyone know exactly when the #4 was acquired? Thanks in advance!

On Monday, January 6th, 2014, 11th Post on Page #3, Rainier Rails wrote:
[s.r.]121. Great Spirit (Lot #4782, Plan #3953C, 1924, 3C-1DR-lng-obs, Monon)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Monon and converted to business car #2 (1953) to L&N to Leonard Brown #2 Lynne (1971) to Monon RR H&TS #2 The Monon (#800350) (2011)[s.r.]
Les Beckman wrote:
[s.r.][A] bit of clarification on Great Spirit. Yes, she was eventually donated to the Monon Railroad Historical-Technical Society and moved to the Indiana Railway Museum in French Lick, Indiana. And yes, the President of the MRHTS wanted to rename her as the Monon to honor the railroad. However, it was put to a vote of the MRHTS membership and we decided in favor of Lynne and that is the name she is now (again) known by. She carried the name Lynne when in service on the Monon until she was eventually renumbered simply as number 2.

Briggs lists the name of Leonard Brown's company as Brown, Inc., and that it was located in Michigan City, IN.

On Sunday, October 3rd, 2010, 13th Post on Page #2, Brian Norden wrote:
[s.r.][F]rom the Dover Harbor website we have these existing "sister" cars:
[s.r.]
DOVER FORT on the Hocking Valley Scenic Railway in 2006.
On Monday, January 6th, 2014, 10th Post on Page #3, Rainier Rails wrote:
[s.r.]15. Dover Fort (Lot #4805, Plan #4015C, 1924/34, 6DB-buf-lng, NYC, ex-Ligonier)--sold to NYC #10754 (1948) to Pullman (1958) sold to Ohio Power Company (1967) to Muskegun Electric to HVSR to Iowa Pacific (201?)[s.r.]
On Friday, January 10th, 2014, 8th Post on Page #7, Rainier Rails wrote:
[s.r.]202. Oak Lane (Lot #4845, Plan #4172, 1925/49, 12RM-1SB-4DB, ex-McMicken)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ohio Power Co. (1967) to Muskingum Electric and stored in Nelsonville, OH[s.r.]

The spelling is indeed Muskingum, not Muskegun, and Briggs lists that these 2 cars were located at "Prentice Station" in Cumberland, OH.

On Monday, January 6th, 2014, 7th Post on Page #4, Rainier Rails wrote:
[s.r.]132. City of Decatur (Lot #6038, Plan #3957K, 1927, 1DR-plr [26 seats], WAB, ex-Clara Morris)--sold to Wabash (1945) to N&W?? to Monticello RY Mus[s.r.]

Briggs lists that the City of Decatur was owned by the Illini RR Club before going to Monticello. It's also worth mentioning that it had been reconfigured in 1955 to a 37 seat parlor, as Plan #3957K (previously Plan #3957E, originally Plan #3957A). Does anyone know when Illini acquired this car (it was withheld from lease in August 1956), or when it was resold to Monticello? Thanks in advance!

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. "Private Passenger Car Annual Volume One: 1980", by David L. Briggs (RPC Publications, 1980)

4. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:08 am 
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More info from the "Private Passenger Car Annual".

First off, a question concerning a car which is no longer extant, and which hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread:

Tourist #3066 (Lot #3864, Plan #4061, 1910/38, 14S, ex-Plan #2410 12S-1DR Glynden, PRR)--sold to SOU and rebuilt to baggage car AGS #4061 (1953) later (when??) modified to a commissary car for the steam program, with the name Queen & Crescent Club applied, wrecked in the Great Dismal Swamp in 1986 and subsequently scrapped.

In my notes, I have that the #4061 was owned by the Heart of Dixie Chapter, while Briggs lists that it was leased by Southern to the Birmingham Chapter, and apparently used at one point by the American Red Cross (I'm assuming for blood drive use?). Also, was this car equipped with outlets for use by those who made sound recordings? Finally, when the wreck occurred in 1986, were the cars that were deemed to be beyond repair scrapped on site or moved somewhere else for scrapping? And was there a delay before scrapping took place? i.e., due to insurance cost calculations being made?

Next, some potential survivors listed in the book which have not been mentioned before in this thread. Of course, the info contained in the volume is now 36 years out of date, but it's possible that some of these cars might still be extant. At this point, I'm not assigning any of the following cars line item numbers until confirmation is given one way or the other as to their current status or final disposition.

Tourist #5807 (Lot #4053, Plan #2669T, 1912/26/30/43, 39 triple-deck beds for troop train use, ex-Plan #2669A 1DR-plr [26]-obs Irene, exx-Plan #2669C 1DR-plr [25]-obs, exxx-Chrysanthemum, exxxx-Plan #2669A, nee-Empire State [1st], NYC)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to MP and modified for MofW use as #X4067 (1950), later (when??) renumbered as #X4767.

Briggs lists that the #X4767 was owned by the Arkansas RR Club (a.k.a. the Little Rock Chapter NRHS), that it was used as a "museum car" (displays and exhibits?), that it had had the original name Empire State reapplied, and further lists that it was the ex-Maury W. Loket. What isn't clear is if Maury W. Loket was a name that was formerly applied to the car, or if this is the name of someone who owned the car after MP but before the Arkansas RR Club. Also, no date of sale by MP is included. Arkansas RR Club, at least as of several years ago, was still in existence (severed ties with NRHS in 2009). Are there any Arkansas RR Club members on the forum who know if the Empire State is still around? Thanks in advance!

Poplar Creek (Lot #4494, Plan #4060, 1917/37, 6S-6DB, ex-Plan #2411C 12S-1C-1DR Uncas Road, 20th Century Limited)--sold to SAL #1213 (1948), withheld from lease in February 1967 and subsequently sold/donated to the Blackberry Creek RY Historical Society (Jacksonville, FL).

Centsalva (Lot #6205, Plan #3979A, 1928, 8S-1DR-2C)--sold to SOO (1948), to #1258 (1955), withheld from lease in October 1955 and subsequently sold/donated to Historyland (Hayward, WI), resold to the Historic Dakota Central RR (Madison, SD) (July 1976).

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. "Private Passenger Car Annual Volume One: 1980", by David L. Briggs (RPC Publications, 1980)

4. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:49 am 
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More info from the "Private Passenger Car Annual":

On Sunday, October 3rd, 2010, 13th Post on Page #2, Brian Norden wrote:
[section removed][F]rom the Dover Harbor website we have these existing "sister" cars:
[s.r.]DOVER PLAINS
On Monday, January 6th, 2014, 10th Post on Page #3, Rainier Rails wrote:
[s.r.]18. Dover Plains (2nd) (Lot #4698, Plan #4015C, 1923/34, 6DB-buf-lng, NYC, ex-Toms River)--sold to MC #10750 (1948) to Pullman (1958) sold to Jack Ferris (1965) to E&LS[s.r.]
On Monday, January 6th, 2014, 12th Post on Page #3, J3a-614 wrote:
Any word on what happened to Glen Blair, a 6&3 which was intact for years at Brunswick, Md. car shops? I don't think it was scrapped in place, I think it may have been moved prior to that area being cleaned out, but I don't really know for sure.
On Monday, January 6th, 2014, 7th Post on Page #4, Rainier Rails wrote:
[s.r.]J3a and the board--

Found another thread on surviving heavyweights while doing a Google search for info on the 6-3 Glen Blair:

Cars in need of assitance: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19681

Dean Levin states in the opening post that the Glen Blair (as of 2006) was owned and located at LASTA outside of New Orleans.

131. Glen Blair (Lot #6124, Plan #3523C, 1928, 6C-3DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby-Darby Wood Products (1967) stored at Brunswick, MD car shops (owned by whom?) to LASTA[s.r.]
On Monday, January 6th, 2014, 3rd Post on Page #5, J3a-614 wrote:
Thanks, Rainier Rails, for at least confirming that Glen Blair made it out of Brunswick, Md., though it would be nice to find if she survives today. At least she initially fared better than the unique B&O baggage cars that were there with her that got cut up.[s.r.]
On Tuesday, January 7th, 2014, 5th Post on Page #5, Rainier Rails wrote:
Did some further looking around, and the LASTA website identifies the 6-3 sleeper in their collection as the Glen Pond, not the Glen Blair. Hmm.

Well, here's the interesting thing. Earlier this evening while searching for the Glen Blair, I found a link on Jerry LaBoda's website to this picture: http://www.bcoolidge.com/ANG%20Pix/ANG-Pullman%20Sleepers-Glen-Pond-Glen-Blair_11_28_64.jpg (Bob Coolidge photo). This photo, one of many that Bob took of the PRR specials coming into Philadelphia for the Army-Navy Game on that day, shows both the Glen Pond and Glen Blair!! (The first and second cars respectively--this photo is also used on the LASTA passenger car page: http://lasta.org/?page_id=206.)

[s.r.][D]oes anyone here know which of the two Glen-series 6-3 sleepers LASTA actually owns??
On Tuesday, January 7th, 2014, 12th Post on Page #5, Rainier Rails wrote:
[s.r.]Collection of the Lake Shore RHS:

151. Central Park (Lot #4886, Plan #3959E, 1925, 3C-2DR-lng-obs)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Chattahoochee Valley RR (1955) to LSRHS

152. Lake Terrell (Lot #4770, Plan #3585L, 1924, 10S-2C-1DR)—retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby-Darby Wood Products (1967) to LSRHS

153. Nightstar (Lot #6056, Plan #3980C, 1927, 14SB, MILW)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Midwest Steel (1964) to LSRHS

154. Poplar Summit (Lot #4845, Plan #4084A, 1925/39, 6S-6DB, ACL/PRR, ex-McClung)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby-Darby Wood Products (1967) to LSRHS
On Thursday, January 9th, 2014, 5th Post on Page #7, Rainier Rails wrote:
[s.r.]192. Donizetti (Lot #4833, Plan #3523K, 1924, 6C-3DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--to Ruben Darby-Darby Wood Products (1967) to Mad River & Nickel Plate RR Mus[s.r.]
On Sunday, January 12th, 2014, 12th Post on Page #9, Rainier Rails wrote:
[s.r.]I wonder...

Besides SOU #2523 Glen Summit, Glen Saddell (still pending), PRR #8836 John Greenleaf Whittier, and Palm Lane (on long term lease from CNY Chapter), are there any additional heavyweight sleepers that have been acquired by Iowa Pacific/SLRG, either already listed as a survivor in this thread or otherwise??
On Sunday, January 12th, 2014, 14th Post on Page #9, jmlaboda wrote:
This is from the roster presented in the Trains magazine article, June 2013.
[s.r.]
154. SLRG 9166 Poplar Summit
192. SLRG 9167 Donizetti
[s.r.]
152. SLRG 9173 Lake Terrell
151. SLRG 9174 Central Park
153. SLRG 9175 Nightstar
On Monday, January 27th, 2014, 11th Post on Page #14, PLATFORMCAR wrote:
Current photographs ( January 2014 ) of Glen Pond, outside New Orleans La

Dean Levin

Image

Image

Image
On Monday, January 27th, 2014, 14th Post on Page #14, Rainier Rails wrote:
[s.r.]Thanks, Dean, for the photos of Glen Pond!

This means there's another mystery that needs to be solved! Back on page #3, J3a-614 inquired as to the current location of 6-3 Glen Blair, which had been stored for years at the car shops in Brunswick, MD.

While searching for info as to the current location of Glen Blair, I came across this thread: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19681, which was posted by Dean in January 2006. In his opening post, Dean listed the Glen Blair as being owned by LASTA. Myster solved, and Glen Blair was listed in this thread as line item no. 131. Not apparently, as later on while I was searching for info on other cars owned by LASTA, I noticed on their passenger car page (http://lasta.org/?page_id=206), that they stated they owned the 6-3 Glen Pond, and there was no mention of Glen Blair!

Hmm...

Well, at the time I dismissed the discrepancy as a simple clerical error, assuming that there had been confusion at some point regarding the car's identity, which seemed to be confirmed by the fact that LASTA used a photo taken by Bob Coolidge in Philadelphia in 1964 (http://www.bcoolidge.com/ANG%20Pix/ANG-Pullman%20Sleepers-Glen-Pond-Glen-Blair_11_28_64.jpg), which showed both the Glen Blair and Glen Pond!!

Well, as the photos posted today by Dean confirm, LASTA does indeed own the Glen Pond!! So, the question is, does LASTA also own the Glen Blair, or does it need to be reclassified as a "Where Is It Now?" car??

Regardless, the Glen Pond now needs to be assigned a line item number:

296. Glen Pond (Lot #6182, Plan #3523L, 1928, 6C-3DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby-Darby Wood Products (1967) to LASTA[s.r.]
On Sunday, April 13th, 2014, 14th Post on Page #17, Rainier Rails wrote:
As this thread has continued to identify surviving cars, I have noticed that there were several cars that had been acquired by two different private owners: Jack Ferris and Ruben Darby. Many of these cars had remained in Pullman ownership and pool service after the 12/31/1948 divestiture. However, at this time, a few of the cars acquired by either owner have yet to surface as being extant. Does anyone know the whereabouts of these cars?

Below are listed all the cars I have noted as acquired by either owner.

Jack Ferris-Private Railroad Cars Incorparated owned:

Known Survivors:[s.r.]

18. Dover Plains (Lot #4698, Plan #4015C, 1923/34, 6DB-buf-lng, ex-Toms River)--sold to MC #10750 (1948) returned to Pullman (1958) sold to Jack Ferris (1965) to Escanaba & Lake Superior (when??)[s.r.]

Question:

Did Jack Ferris own any other cars in addition to the nine I have listed?

Ruben Darby-Darby Wood Products owned:

Known Survivors:[s.r.]

131. Glen Blair (Lot #6124, Plan #3523C, 1928, 6C-3DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby (1967) stored at Brunswick, MD (when??) to LASTA (when??)[s.r.]

152. Lake Terrell (Lot #4770, Plan #3585L, 1924, 10S-1DR-2C)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby (1967) to Lake Shore RHS (when?) to Iowa Pacific as SLRG #9173 (201?)

154. Poplar Summit (Lot #4845, Plan #4084A, 1925/39, 6S-6DB, ex-McClung, ACL)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby (1967) to Lake Shore RHS (when?) to Iowa Pacific as SLRG #9166 (201?)

192. Donizetti (Lot #4833, Plan #3523K, 1924, 6C-3DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby (1967) to Mad River & Nickel Plate (when?) to Iowa Pacific as SLRG #9167 (201?)

296. Glen Pond (Lot #6182, Plan #3523L, 1928, 6C-3DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby (1967) to LASTA (when??)

Unknown Status:[s.r.]

318. Moore (Lot #4833, Plan #3523A, 1924, 6C-3DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby (1967)[s.r.]

320. Poplar Trail (Lot #4844, Plan #4084A, 1925/39, 6S-6DB, ex-McCarley, L&N)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby (1967)[s.r.]
On Thursday, June 26th, 2014, Rainier Rails wrote:
A Correction:

As posted by Ray Grabowski, Jr., President of Lake Shore RHS, over in the Iowa Pacific roster thread on page #6 (http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=36455&start=75):

152. Lake Terrell (Lot #4770, Plan #3585L, 1924, 10S-1DR-2C)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold in 1967 to Ruben Darby-Darby Wood Products to Lake Shore RHS agreement reached with Iowa Pacific to lease the Lake Terrell, SLRG #9173 will not be applied to car, will carry ENEX reporting marks, still in North East, PA

154. Poplar Summit (Lot #4845, Plan #4084A, 1925/39, 6S-6DB, ex-McClung, ACL/PRR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold in 1967 to Ruben Darby-Darby Wood Products to Lake Shore RHS sold to Iowa Pacific as SLRG #9166, moved in 2011 to Lancaster & Chester, then to Alamosa

151. Central Park (Lot #4886, Plan #3959E, 1925, 3C-2DR-lng-obs, NYC)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold in 1955 to Chattahoochee Valley RR to Lake Shore RHS agreement reached with Iowa Pacific to lease the Central Park, SLRG #9174 will not be applied to car, will carry ENEX reporting marks, still in North East, PA

153. Nightstar (Lot #6056, Plan #3980C, 1927, 14SBD, MILW)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold in 1964 to Midwest Steel to Lake Shore RHS agreement reached with Iowa Pacific to lease the Nightstar, SLRG #9175 will not be applied to car, will carry ENEX reporting marks, still in North East, PA
On Thursday, September 11th, 2014, 7th Post on Page #23, parlourcar wrote:
[s.r.]I also have 'NIGHTSTAR" listed as going to Ferris in October 1965, if this is accurate, it was also acquired from Midwest Steel, as listed on Tom Madden's page.
On Thursday, September 18th, 2014, 12th Post on Page #23, Brian Norden wrote:
In the March (annual) 1964 issue of The Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment (published by The Railway Equipment and Publication Co.) has the following cars listed in the "Privately Owner Passenger Trains Cars" section under Private Railroad Cars, Inc (with Mr John W. Ferris as President):
Capital Heights - private car
Travel Club - 8sec-buffet-solarium obs
Clover Colony - 8 sec-5 DBR

The 1965 issue added these cars:
Night Star and Night Trail - 14 SBR
Nansemond County - 10 sec-solarium=lounge (not listed in following years)

In the 1966 issue the following cars were added:
Wabash Valley - diner-lounge
Dover Plains - buffet-lounge-sleeper
Glen Alta - 6Comp-3DRM

In the 1967 issue the follwering cars were also listed:
Cascade Banks - 10 Rmt-5 DBR
Martha Washington - dinner-recreation

No listing in the 1968 issue.


Correction: the spelling of Darby's first name is Reuben, not Ruben.

Briggs lists that the Dover Plains was resold by Ferris at an unknown date to Charles Wiesner and Johnny Winter, who leased the car to the Mid-Continent RY Museum. Does anyone know when Wiesner and Winter acquired this car, or when it was resold to E&LS? Thanks in advance!

Briggs lists that Lake Shore RHS numbered the Lake Terrell as #3930.

Briggs lists that Lake Shore RHS acquired the Donizetti from Darby, as #1892. Does anyone know when this car was resold to the Mad River & NKP? Thanks in advance!

Briggs lists that Lake Shore RHS acquired the Moore from Darby, as #4828. Does anybody know the current status/location of this car, or when it was resold by Lake Shore? Thanks in advance!

Briggs lists that Lake Shore RHS acquired the Poplar Trail from Darby, as #5983. Does anybody know the current status/location of this car, or when it was resold by Lake Shore? Thanks in advance!

Briggs lists that Lake Shore RHS numbered the Poplar Summit as #5980.

Briggs lists that Lake Shore RHS numbered the Central Park as #989.

Briggs lists that the Nightstar was resold by Ferris at an unknown date to John Hurst, and that it was located at Lake Shore RHS as #5287. Does anybody know when Hurst acquired this car, or if/when title passed from Hurst to Lake Shore? Thanks in advance!

Briggs lists that Lake Shore RHS acquired the Glen Pond from Darby, as #2829. Does anybody know when this car was resold to LASTA, or if LASTA really does own both the Glen Pond and the Glen Blair, or just the Glen Pond? Thanks in advance!

Does anybody know when either Ferris or Darby sold their cars, or when Lake Shore acquired the Central Park from Chattahoochee Valley? Thanks in advance!

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. "Private Passenger Car Annual Volume One: 1980", by David L. Briggs (RPC Publications, 1980)

4. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

_________________
Ted Brumberg


Last edited by Rainier Rails on Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:23 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:42 am
Posts: 1677
Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
More info from the "Private Passenger Car Annual":

On Thursday, September 30th, 2010, 4th Post on Page #2, shaymech wrote:
[section removed]We also have two Southern baggage cars, Southern #6454 and #6262, that were built by Pullman as sleepers. They were rebuilt in the 1950's by the Southern into baggage cars.
On Monday, January 6th, 2014, 10th Post on Page #3, Rainier Rails wrote:
[s.r.]70. William Aiken (Lot #4899, Plan #3584A, 1925, 10S-2DR, SOU, ex-Edward Cary Walthall [1st])--sold to GS&F #6206 (1948) rebuilt to baggage-express GS&F #6454 (circa 1952), now at North Carolina Transportation Museum[s.r.]

Briggs lists that the #6454 was owned by the Jacksonville Chapter NRHS. Does anybody know when the car was acquired from SOU or when it was resold/donated to NCTM? Thanks in advance!

On Monday, January 6th, 2014, 11th Post on Page #3, Rainier Rails wrote:
[s.r.]105. Golden Peak (Lot #6125, Plan #3959A, 1928, 3C-2DR-lng-obs, SP, ex-Crystal Peak)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Lucius Beebe and Charles Clegg, rebuilt to business car #100 Virginia City (1954) to VA City Rail Corp. (#800313)[s.r.]

Briggs lists that the Virginia City was sold by Clegg to Nevada Alvarado Corporation of Hillsborough, CA. Does anybody know when it was sold by Clegg or when it was resold to Virginia City Rail Corp? Thanks in advance!

On Monday, January 6th, 2014, 7th Post on Page #4, Rainier Rails wrote:
[s.r.]128. Greencastle (Lot #4691, Plan #2416D, 1923, 1DR-plr [26 seats], PRR)--sold to NC&StL and converted to coach #734 (1941) to coach-lng-obs #1103 to TVRM[s.r.]
On Monday, January 6th, 2014, 13th Post on Page #4, etalcos wrote:
Not exactly. 1103, er actually L&N 2599 belongs to VLIX, not TVRM.

Briggs lists that the #2599 was sold to David Witherspoon, then later resold to the Griggsville Wild Bird Society (Griggsville, IL). A number of cars that were at Griggsville were later moved (1988?) to the Purple Martin Train in Atlantic, IA; I'm not sure if the #2599 was among those moved. Was Purple Martin a successor company to Griggsville, or did they simply purchase a number of the cars? I believe that the Purple Martin cars were auctioned off in 1995? In addition to these 2 questions, does anyone (ETA, Hayneshopcat) know when VLIX acquired the #2599, and from where (Griggsville or Purple Martin?), or when the car was sold to Witherspoon, or when it was resold to Griggsville? Thanks in advance!

On Wednesday, January 8th, 2014, 4th Post on Page #7, jmlaboda wrote:
[s.r.]Now... since this thread has moved to restaurant cars it is worth mentioning that the Aberdeen Carolina & Western recently repainted their ex-PRR/PULL Defender car and renamed it Pinehurst[s.r.]
On Thursday, January 9th, 2014, 5th Post on Page #7, Rainier Rails wrote:
[s.r.]184. Defender (Lot #3986, Plan #4019S, 1912/33, rest-plr, PRR, ex-Glenolden)--sold to PRR #7014 (1945) to AC&W #7014 Pinehurst[s.r.]
On Sunday, April 20th, 2014, 9th Post on Page #18, jmlaboda wrote:
I found this tonight and thought I better mention the correction. it actually should be:

184. Defender (Lot #3986, Plan #4019S, 1912/33, rest-plr, PRR, ex-Glenolden)--sold to PRR #7014 (1945) to AC&W #7014 Defender, to AC&W Pinehurst (so far, no number)

Briggs lists that the Defender was sold by PRR to Historic Red Clay Valley, Inc. in Wilmington, DL (the W&W). I did some further searching through the forum for older threads with info on this car, and found the following:

AC&W F-units--recognize the name? (original post 1/25/2007 by ADM IV)

On Thursday, January 25th, 2007, Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
Snipped (and edited) from Trains Magazine's daily News Wire:

Quote:
STAR, N.C. - The F-units recently purchased by short line Aberdeen, Carolina & Western will be used for business and special train movements, according to ACWR's General Manager William G. Bartosh.[s.r.]

The train includes a streamlined twin-unit diner lounge, a 1912 Pullman-built diner Defender, a 1923 business car once owned by the Detroit, Toledo & Ironton, and the Pennsylvania, a former Burlington Zephyr dome car, and a flat car with railings for open-air rides.

The last I saw of "Billy" Bartosh was the Chesapeake Railroad, on the Clayton, Del.-Easton, Md. ex-PRR line (last run by the Md. and Delaware) on the rural Eastern Shore. It sounds like the business car and twin-unit diner are ex-EnterTrainment Line (nee-Maryland Midland), and the Pullman "Defender" has been a nomad for years, with stints on the MDDE, Chesapeake RR, and elsewhere.[s.r.]
On Friday, January 26th, 2007, Ray Reter wrote:
I had the pleasure of riding in the Defender on a Baltimore Chapter NRHS excursion from Baltimore to Oakland (Md.) some years ago. I met Bill Bartosh and thought he was doing a very nice job on preserving that parlor car. I'm glad to hear it's still in existence!

Does anybody know when the car was sold by HRCV/W&W, and was it sold to Bartosh at that time, or was there another owner in between? If so, when was it resold to Bartosh? Thanks in advance!

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. "Private Passenger Car Annual Volume One: 1980", by David L. Briggs (RPC Publications, 1980)

4. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

_________________
Ted Brumberg


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:21 am 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
Posts: 343
Location: Morganton, N.C.
Quote:
Does anybody know when it was sold by Clegg...


Lucius Beebe and Charles Clegg acquired the car from Pullman July 1954 with Clegg being left the car upon Beebe's death.

_________________
jerry

Passenger Car Photo Index Updated 8/9/17 with 8,402 new links

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:08 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:42 am
Posts: 1677
Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Another Survivor:

418. Wallaceton (Lot #4691, Plan #2416D, 1923/41/47, 1DR-plr [26], PRR)--sold to NC&StL and rebuilt to coach #730 (68 seats??) (1941), rebuilt to 32 seat diner-8 seat lounge #1200 (1947??), to L&N #2730, transferred (when??) to MofW department as #42149, to SBD (or CSX??) #972149, sold (when??) to VLIX and located at TVRM, as seen here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/96665117@N02/19572218520

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

3. Jerry LaBoda's photo links database: http://passcarphotos.info/

4. L&N passenger car diagram folio of February 1961

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

_________________
Ted Brumberg


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:37 pm 

Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 11:27 am
Posts: 420
Location: Switching the Coach Yard
Rainier Rails wrote:
Another Survivor:

418. Wallaceton (Lot #4691, Plan #2416D, 1923/41/47, 1DR-plr [26], PRR)--sold to NC&StL and rebuilt to coach #730 (68 seats??) (1941), rebuilt to 32 seat diner-8 seat lounge #1200 (1947??), to L&N #2730, transferred (when??) to MofW department as #42149, to SBD (or CSX??) #972149, sold (when??) to VLIX and located at TVRM, as seen here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/96665117@N02/19572218520

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

3. Jerry LaBoda's photo links database: http://passcarphotos.info/

4. L&N passenger car diagram folio of February 1961

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.


CSX sold the car to Tennessee Southern Railroad, and from there to VLIX. It is located at TCRM/Nashville and Eastern Railroad, not TVRM...

ETA


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 3:08 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:10 pm
Posts: 36
FYI, heavyweight Pullman 8 section/Restaurant Lounge/ Obs. TRAVEL CLUB was scrapped onsite at Decatur, IN in April 2012. It had been in stationary service at the Back Forty Junction restaurant for over 30 years and deterioration was getting severe. It was very much original except for the furnishings in the solarium area. The car was previously stored at Fort Wayne's C.A.S.A.D. government depot (east of New Haven off the NKP) along with over 100 Pullman cars in the late 1950's, part of a Defense Department war reserve fleet. When the fleet was disposed of in the early 1960's, Jack Farris of Fort Wayne formed Private Railroad Cars, Inc. and acquired the TRAVEL CLUB along with the CLOVER COLONY, CAPITOL HEIGHTS. He operated these on some charters on some regular B&O passenger trains, maybe others. CAPITOL HEIGHTS - where are you? The late Glenn Brendel of FWRHS (NKP 765) thought it had gone to Florida but never had any further confirmation of that.


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