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 Post subject: Re: PRR Long haul tender frame and trucks found in steel mil
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:36 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2126
Location: Northern Illinois
There were. Back in the eighties, it was like being up to your a$$ in alligators, the number of tenders that survived as water cars, fuel tenders, plows and flangers... But what good is a tender with no chooch?

In the interviewing three decades railroad MOW practices have changed; no more wreck outfits - call Hulcher. No more big gangs, it's all contracted out... And those contractors bus their guys to a motel every night, so now camp, shower, or kitchen cars with their need for water. Thus, one by one, all those tenders quietly went to scrap.

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 Post subject: Re: PRR Long haul tender frame and trucks found in steel mil
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:26 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2097
the uniqueness to finding this is the T1 can actually make use of it is the engine would have the actual equipment used behind the original engine, making the engine a little more genuine. Be cool if they do it, if not, it will still be all very interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: PRR Long haul tender frame and trucks found in steel mil
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:16 am 

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:38 pm
Posts: 238
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
I could not find the group's response to the matter on Facebook, I did see mention to the complete tender though. Would there be any plan to actually use these?

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 Post subject: Re: PRR Long haul tender frame and trucks found in steel mil
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:34 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3054
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
10stewi wrote:
I could not find the group's response to the matter on Facebook, I did see mention to the complete tender though. Would there be any plan to actually use these?


The location of the entry with the photo was a post by a visitor. Click on the column where you saw the tender where it's labelled "Visitor Posts" or something similar, and that should open the column in the center of the screen. From there you can see "Comments", followed by a number. Those are the subsequent comments to the original post. Click on that, and that will open up the following commentary, which does include a response from the T1 people.


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 Post subject: Re: PRR Long haul tender frame and trucks found in steel mil
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:17 am 

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:42 am
Posts: 208
Location: Lancaster, PA
Hello,

As a co-witness along with Mr. Laepple those many years ago and finding assembly drawings of these in an old locomotive cyclopedia, these trucks are very heavily constructed with a significant main frame casting. The truck frames alone would be worth the acquisition. Hopefully the tender deck took the brunt of the steel mill abuse and the trucks could reasonably be renewed. Certainly if not available now, Timken could suggest replacement bearings.

The floor deck was originally a water bottom casting? Albeit heavily abused, it may be worth the acquisition to review construction details used at the time, especially to provide back up detail when they develop the 3-d CAD model of this deck.

These are very wonderful examples of heavy duty American railroading!

Great find!

Regards,

Randy


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 Post subject: Re: PRR Long haul tender frame and trucks found in steel mil
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:39 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 3:07 pm
Posts: 642
I'm fairly certain that when PRR built FD2 flatcar 470245 c.1957 the publicity information did state that the trucks came from retired steam locos, although I don't recall if any particular class was mentioned. At the time of its construction it was the highest capacity freight car in the world. Four axle trucks of any type have always been a very rare item.


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 Post subject: Re: PRR Long haul tender frame and trucks found in steel mil
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:00 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:29 am
Posts: 316
Location: Schuylkill County, PA
Jeff Lisowski wrote:
Is the mill willing to let this piece of equipment go though?


Everything is for sale, for the right price.

I suspect the cost of providing them a suitable replacement would be less than the cost of duplicating those trucks from the ground up.


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 Post subject: Re: PRR Long haul tender frame and trucks found in steel mil
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:36 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8399
Location: Baltimore, MD
I spoke with a staffer at the Railroaders Memorial Museum, in a completely unofficial, "brainstorming" capacity.

Here's the idea we came up with:

The T1 Trust somehow acquires the "flat car" in Coatesville. They remove and clean up the trucks under it, then swap them for the trucks under the PRR "Queen Mary" flatcar at Altoona, which are most likely in far better operating condition.........

Again, not an officially sanctioned idea. But from a curatorial standpoint, acceptable, provided the trucks in Coatesville are what we are hoping they are......


Last edited by Alexander D. Mitchell IV on Wed Nov 11, 2015 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: PRR Long haul tender frame and trucks found in steel mil
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:12 am 

Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 8:46 am
Posts: 14
Location: Altoona, PA
ADM et al:

I'm a little late to the party on this one, but the trucks under the FD2 are almost certainly the same type. For comparison...

One of the trucks under the 'flat car' in Arcelormittal's Coatesville facility (from facebook):
Image

The four under the FD2:
Image
Image
Image
Image

Note the cast markings are all similar and are all (PRR) X24478-_. That should tell enough. These 6 trucks are among the last surviving bits of the T1 and J1.

The trucks under the Queen Mary have definitely not been abused as hard as the ones in Coatesville have, though the mill's abuse of them and the tender frame is proof of their tenacity. I also like the idea of swapping them, should the trust acquire the Coatesville pair. It might be unofficial and not sanctioned (yet), but it may be a sign of a changing attitudes out of Altoona at the same time. It's very interesting where this all could lead in the grand scheme of things.

TP


Last edited by T.E.P on Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: PRR Long haul tender frame and trucks found in steel mil
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:42 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 3749
Location: Maine
I would think there would be another option, other than to leave the "Queen Mary" without trucks or sitting on blocks. Still the T1 trucks are obviously a necessary save. The steel mill would need something that handles the weight, and that needn't be trucks of historical significance.

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 Post subject: Re: PRR Long haul tender frame and trucks found in steel mil
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:52 am 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 907
Correct me if wrong, but there is almost no way the truck from Coatesville would have initially gone on a T1 with that early-1944 casting date, is there?

Someone knowledgeable needs to look at the frame in Coatesville and determine what it is: I see a large amount of casting at one end, and have my doubts that the mill would modify a different cast frame to take the eight-wheel trucks rather than just cut down and reinforce the existing PRR tender. Surely one of the PRR-FAX resident experts can tell.

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 Post subject: Q2 tender - Re: PRR Long haul tender frame and trucks
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:07 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:52 pm
Posts: 909
Hi,

I was wondering how different the Q2 tender was to the T1.

I was (maybe in error) thinking the T1 tender was similar to the Q2 with 4 axle trucks.

I like the idea of saving the steel mill tender frame and trucks.

Then swapping the tender trucks for the FD2 trucks for use under the new T1.

It reminds me if the 3-way swap of narrow guge tank cars in teh 1990s. Eight of nine (I think) ex-UTLX narrow frame cars used by the White Pass were purchased by the Colorado RR Museum and the Cumbres and Toltec Scenic. The Ashby's Georgetown Loop had two frameless cars. The CRRM took one of its two narrow frame tankers and sent it to Georgetown for one of the Ashby's frameless tank cars.

Definitely a win-win-win.

Doug vV


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 Post subject: Re: PRR Long haul tender frame and trucks found in steel mil
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:22 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 3:07 pm
Posts: 642
Look at the range of dates and sub-letters of the pattern number. Earliest appears to be 2/41, revision C, then 1944, revision D, then 1945, revision E.

What would the 1941 casting be from? The prototype T1s? The Q1?

Another point to remember is that truck casting dates are not necessarily directly related to loco production dates.

A fascinating find nevertheless.


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 Post subject: Re: PRR Long haul tender frame and trucks found in steel mil
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:08 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:52 pm
Posts: 909
Hi,

I did not think about the date.

I whip out my 1974 Keystone Steam and Electric by William Edson (everybody knows that items in print are always 100% correct right?).

Q1 4-6-4-4 #6130 was built 5/42.
Q2 4-4-6-4 #6131 was 8/44
Q2 4-4-6-4 #6175-6199 between 1/45 and 6/45

T1 4-4-4-4 #6110 was 4/42
T1 4-4-4-4 #6111 was 5/42
T1 4-4-4-4 #5500-5549 between 11/45 and 8/46

J1 2-10-4 1942-1943 first batch of 24
J1 2-10-4 1943 second batch of 60
J1 2-10-4 1943-1944 third batch of 40

I think another 24 J1s were scheduled to be built but were canceled in favor of the Q2

So the 1941 casting date could be from the prototype Q1, the T1. or the J1 first batch.

FWIW.

Doug vV


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