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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:23 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:37 pm
Posts: 1057
Location: Pacific, MO
I still wonder why all the staybolt caps as well as firebox sheets needed to be replaced. As Donald Cormack stated, 844 received a major boiler overhaul in 99-04. If I recall, new tube sheets, firebox repairs and other major work. I just find it strange that the caps would be replaced this soon.
Good material is available today just as it was in the "good old days". The material used in the previous overhaul was certified material. To use anything else would have been very unwise.
I was able to get several firsthand views of what was happening back then. I was also heavily involved in a steam program and had an inside seat on what was going on. Trust me, it was by the book.
I also worked with them on several trips and witnessed their blowdown procedures and boiler treatment. Again, they were by the book. Photos posted of the current tubes that were being removed were shocking because of the huge amount of scale buildup on them. It would indicate that boiler treatment, blowdown and boiler wash procedures from the past were not being followed.
Many statements have been made about the "old crew" and also the "new crew". I won't belabor any of that because the moderator said so.
I will say that some of the statements made by one poster seem outside the realm of reality. I would have to question his knowledge of restoration, materials, operations and steam in general.
These posts should serve as valuable information to other steam operations and groups wishing to restore and operate and not as personal attacks.
Don Wirth


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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:49 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 710
hamster wrote:
I got this via facebook a few weeks ago in a post talking about the covers over the flexible stay bolts on the 4014. It is unclear whether the 844 is similarly equipped or not, but these stay bolt CAPS have to be removed per Part 230.41. Further I don't know if these are even allowed under the current part 230. Makes sense to replace these permanent caps with removable/replaceable caps.

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hp ... e=56B0C1EA


That is completely incorrect. EVERY flexible staybolt on all 3 UP locomotives comply with Part B of 230.41. All have telltale holes. There nothing to be gained by removing the caps.

That photo shows welded MK-style caps. They do not HAVE to be removed for inspection, EVER! The only reason one of these caps ever has to be removed is to replace the bolt itself. The bolts can be tested and verfied by several known methods that do not require the cap to be disturbed.

The exception is if an FRA inspector demands it (virtually unheard of) or if the locomotive owner-operator, in this case, UP, decides to do so. That is also virtually unheard of, as it is extra labor, time and material expense for nothing.

I suspect the caps have been changed on 844 for purely cosmetic reasons, and if the same is done on 4014, it will also be for that reason. That information came straight from the Shop itself and is not rumor or conjecture. UP has paid for a lot of "bling" on the 844 in the past few years, so there is no reason to believe that this is not another example of that. As can be seen in some of the online videos, for some reason, holes were drilled in the old caps after their removal. There is no explanation why this was done, but doing so makes the old cap scrap so it has to be replaced.

As to the post about steel quality. I agree to a point, however, a piece of steel either meets ASME/ASTM specs or it doesn't. The specs have not changed, and they cover a huge area of the make-up, chemical composition, tensile strength, shear strength and so on, all of which has to be verified by testing pieces of that heat of steel. Steel sold as a particular grade today had damn well better meet that grade, and Material Test Results that track it from the ladle to the finished part will cover it.

Now, it has long been known that certain foreign steel producers are happy to give you MTRs that say whatever you want them to say. That is why prudent operators accept nothing but domestic steel with full MTRs verified by 3rd party labs.

Another thing, if old steel is of higher quality than new, why would anybody replace serviceable "old" steel parts that have no identifiable defects other than their age or lack of beauty with new, presumably lower quality modern steel parts?

What is there to be gained?


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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:55 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:48 am
Posts: 448
Location: Byers, Colorado
Bet I'm not the only one who thinks that getting 4014 moved back to Cheyoming, and into the UP steam program is some kind of accomplishment.

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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:38 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:58 pm
Posts: 1195
Location: Chicago USA
It may be there physically but has anything happened with it?


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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:47 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 710
filmteknik wrote:
It may be there physically but has anything happened with it?


No.


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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:48 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 4996
Well, methinks that if it was still back in California, nothing physically would have happened to it.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:04 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2091
Location: Northern Illinois
Lincoln Penn wrote:
I have yet to see or hear the specific justification for replacing all the caps on 844, aside from some remarks that they were of "inferior material," whatever that means.
I'm sure FRA would love to know more about that "inferior material" and how it passed muster with them in 2004.


Back in May, in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=38018&start=15 M.Jannsen made the comment that the UP steam shop was doing the Six Sigma dance. Once they start down this road of documenting ALL procedures, the very fact that the caps were installed without the required documentation makes them defective and in need of replacement.

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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:44 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
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Dennis Storzek wrote:
Lincoln Penn wrote:
I have yet to see or hear the specific justification for replacing all the caps on 844, aside from some remarks that they were of "inferior material," whatever that means.
I'm sure FRA would love to know more about that "inferior material" and how it passed muster with them in 2004.


Back in May, in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=38018&start=15 M.Jannsen made the comment that the UP steam shop was doing the Six Sigma dance. Once they start down this road of documenting ALL procedures, the very fact that the caps were installed without the required documentation makes them defective and in need of replacement.


Which caps are you referring to, the ones installed in last few months or the ones they replaced. If referring to the ones replaced, what makes you so sure those caps were installed without the required documentation?


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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:18 am 

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:27 am
Posts: 389
Location: Winters, TX
Just to add my two cents worth, the locomotive is owned by the Union Pacific and is being restored by Union Pacific employees using Union Pacific facilities. The Union Pacific does not have to justify their work to us or anybody else other than the FRA. None of our donated money is being wasted on the project since we aren't donating anything. If none of the locomotives ever runs again, I'm grateful for what they've done in the past and that the three locomotives are safely stored inside out of the elements. I don't believe that the Union Pacific deserves the negative bickering that pops up every time the steam program is mentioned.

You may now continue with your discussion of the staybolt caps which is of course the most important part of the restoration.


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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:05 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:48 am
Posts: 448
Location: Byers, Colorado
How many man hours and how much money went into surveying all those Big Boys, getting a clear title to the one they wanted, then moving it half way across the country ??? Just saying.

Let me tell you a little story. It was about 25 years ago that BN Denver Terminal employees wanted to fix up a Q steam engine. Since we knew that we didn't know &*^% from Shinola about what we were doing, we figured that Steve Lee was the best guy to talk to. He and boilermaker Ron Tabke were as helpful as they could possibly have been, and we also had the same FRA man as UP did, Monte Sanders. It wasn't their fault that we failed, either, Steve Lee gave us some solid gold advice that I can't reveal to this day. It's a shame we couldn't act on it, but my superiors had good reasons, and 1522 got the chance instead of us.

Any time somebody mentioned the words "Big Boy" around these guys, it provoked a non stop stream of non stop cusswords. The gist of it was that you'd have to get a dozen Big Boys and park then all around the one youn wanted to fix up, just to get parts. Like, it will never happen, you know ???

I just wonder how hard it was to sell the big shots on this Big Boy project. Looks like an accomplishment to me.

Now, Mr Cormack, your points make perfectly good sense to me. All I'm suggesting is that UP has a good reason for what they're doing, and that you might try asking one of their crew members about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:24 am 

Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:24 pm
Posts: 102
QJdriver wrote:
I just wonder how hard it was to sell the big shots on this Big Boy project.


Apparently the UP higher-ups came to Mr. Dickens about restoring a big boy. Hear it from the man himself.

https://youtu.be/af_ibBvzlfU (Skip to 9:42 in the video)


I don't mean to spur discussion about Mr. Dickens, just that according to him, this is where the idea for the big boy project came from. Interesting that it wasn't the steam guys who first proposed it, but rather the "suit and ties" at headquarters.


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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:37 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2091
Location: Northern Illinois
Lincoln Penn wrote:
Which caps are you referring to, the ones installed in last few months or the ones they replaced. If referring to the ones replaced, what makes you so sure those caps were installed without the required documentation?


The ten year old ones they are replacing. The fact that there is no other apparent reason for their replacement leads me to suspect that since they weren't installed following the current procedure (which is likely just now being written) that they need to be replaced so their application can be documented as having been done under that procedure. But hey, what do I know. maybe they are just trying to spend out the budget before the end of the year.

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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:51 am 

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:08 pm
Posts: 253
Location: Amherst, Oh
Charlie wrote:
Just to add my two cents worth, the locomotive is owned by the Union Pacific and is being restored by Union Pacific employees using Union Pacific facilities. The Union Pacific does not have to justify their work to us or anybody else other than the FRA. None of our donated money is being wasted on the project since we aren't donating anything. If none of the locomotives ever runs again, I'm grateful for what they've done in the past and that the three locomotives are safely stored inside out of the elements. I don't believe that the Union Pacific deserves the negative bickering that pops up every time the steam program is mentioned.

You may now continue with your discussion of the staybolt caps which is of course the most important part of the restoration.


In many ways you're right, but it also is an important topic of discussion. For those who don't know any better (like me) if I were to start restoring something I would look to other restorations, including UP, and think "These other people did X. Why did they do X? Do I need to do X?". I'm not sure if anybody is really questing how something is done by why it's done. Yes, that does factor into railway preservation.


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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:30 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:48 am
Posts: 448
Location: Byers, Colorado
It makes sense that the bosses were behind the Big Boy revival, after all, they don't have to work on it. I also remember Steve Lee telling me that our BN bosses would probably ask us to do impossible things, something like that, maybe.

Thank you as12, that was one of my more profound statements. Of all people, I should know very well that the tail doesn't wag the dog.

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Last edited by QJdriver on Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:24 pm 
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Location: Pac NW, via North Florida
as12 wrote:
Interesting that it wasn't the steam guys who first proposed it, but rather the "suit and ties" at headquarters.
I didn't know that, but it does make a lot of sense.
Now, more than ever, I am confident that we'll eventually be seeing something steaming out of Cheyenne as this proves the 'suits' are motivated for stuff to be steaming...

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