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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:13 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:29 pm
Posts: 26
Do I understand this correctly....

A thread that started on pictures on 844 has AGAIN turned into beating a dead horse on what and why parts are being replaced on 844. All from people who do not work for the Union Pacific.

Let it go man.


Dan Hetzel


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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:44 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 710
DanHetzel wrote:
Do I understand this correctly....

A thread that started on pictures on 844 has AGAIN turned into beating a dead horse on what and why parts are being replaced on 844. All from people who do not work for the Union Pacific.

Let it go man.


Dan Hetzel


You think nobody here works for UP? Or has any background in big steam? Good luck with that.

People considering a restoration need to know what to do and what not to do and why.

This thread has already corrected some common misconceptions about such things as
staybolt cap removal and when it is and is not required.


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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:14 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:41 pm
Posts: 95
Lincoln Penn wrote:

This thread has already corrected some common misconceptions about such things as
staybolt cap removal and when it is and is not required.



Indeed it has. As Frisco1522 said, "These posts should serve as valuable information to other steam operations and groups wishing to restore and operate and not as personal attacks." I am grateful for those who have taken the time to explain some wholly complex aspects of modern locomotive boilers based on relevant, actual experience.

DanHetzel wrote:
Do I understand this correctly....

A thread that started on pictures on 844 has AGAIN turned into beating a dead horse on what and why parts are being replaced on 844. All from people who do not work for the Union Pacific.

Let it go man.


Dan Hetzel


You obviously have not read this thread in it's entirety. I suggest you go back and do so. There is constructive conversation regarding modern locomotive boilers that a LOT of people who are in this industry can benefit from. Some of the members here do not have the luxury of being near or know individuals directly associated with mainline steam locomotives. RYPN can serve as an invaluable tool to bridge that gap.

DC


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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:46 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5252
Location: southeastern USA
Apart from compliance with whichever regulatory agency or insurer's requirements, every operation has its own set of circumstances which will determine what the best practice is for each. I don't think any one size fits all approach is going to cover any much less every situation. Experience is what allows managers to determine how best to deal with their own. Much damage has been done to bank accounts by choosing a less appropriate set of standards and practices that is really required - either insufficient to get through a season and losing out due to missed trips, or too stringent and costly to be sustainable or required due to amount or intensity of service.

_________________
"Techies never minded eating bits and jots of their work. They were grit and grease inside and out and could turn a pile of junk into a magical kingdom."

Andrea Hairston


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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:51 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8354
Location: Baltimore, MD
Quote:
I find it hard to believe that folks are so upset that UP is doing MORE work than they may consider necessary. It bears repeating that UP isn't a museum nor a railroad historical society.

The "justification"--such as it is--for being "upset" might well be that this could set a dangerous precedent. If--just to make up numbers for the sake of example--UP finds reason to spend $10-15 million and five years "fixing" a locomotive that, say, the 4449/261/2926/etc. groups could set right for $1-2 million, it does two things:

    *It gives the "bean counters" at UP the excuse to abandon not only 4014 and 3985, but the entire steam and excursion program for a ridiculous non-return on a too-high "investment";
    *It gives anyone else with such ambitions a frightening excuse to never "go there"--CSX, BNSF, NS, any rail museum, etc.

The impetus to "do it right" can all too easily be taken way too far, as anyone who studies military hardware development can easily attest. (My father told the story of finding a Nazi combat engineer's fuse lighter, a glorified brass lighter, and taking it back to the States where someone did the math and figured out that they probably cost about 80 cents each in 1945 dollars to mass-produce, while the U.S. combat engineers were carrying bunches of disposable waterproof matches that cost about a half-cent each to make--"if one didn't strike, you grabbed the next one, and we weren't lighting more than two or three a mission!")

I fully concede that it's "none of my business" how UP runs or fixes its steam locomotives. But that doesn't mean that I can't muddle a glass full of resentment, regret, and disgust about it--like I do with the current EBT situation--provided that my judgement is based on legitimate, rational concerns, and not some vicious gossip and rumor-mongering. As for the current UP steam situation, however, I have no freakin' idea what to think about it, because of too much blather being aired online.


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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:36 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:37 pm
Posts: 1055
Location: Pacific, MO
nyc1115_wv wrote:
I've read the entire thread, and it hasn't corrected misconceptions about anything. It (like many other threads regarding UP and Cheyenne) only serves to provide a select few "experts" the opportunity to question why UP isn't doing restoration(s) the way it SHOULD be done.]

NYC1115

It would seem that you have missed the point of the thread. If this is a restoration and preservation web site, then discussion among people in the know about what is necessary, what is required under Federal Regs, correct and incorrect procedures and practices is totally germane to the the topic.
I don't see much of it as character assassination or finger pointing. I see it as discussing the whys and wherefore of doing unnecessary work, which drags the project out longer. I'm going to throw one thing out here, that the individual in charge has never done a restoration of this size, or maybe none at all. It is my opinion that the projects have become mired in a mud hole of Biblical proportions. That is just my opinion and it isn't casting aspersions.

Don W
Help is out there everywhere and a meeting of minds could make a success of it.
My original questions were why are the staybolt caps all being replaced and why is there so much firebox work necessary. Simple as that. Read it anyway you want.

If the experts are so concerned about getting the word out about "proper" restorations, I would suggest completing the Best Practices Guide that has been mentioned in other threads.


Last edited by Frisco1522 on Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:46 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 457
DanHetzel wrote:
A thread that started on pictures on 844 has AGAIN turned into beating a dead horse on what and why parts are being replaced on 844. All from people who do not work for the Union Pacific.

"Too bad that all the people who know how to run the country are busy driving taxicabs and cutting hair." - George Burns


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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:20 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 710
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

The "justification"--such as it is--for being "upset" might well be that this could set a dangerous precedent. If--just to make up numbers for the sake of example--UP finds reason to spend $10-15 million and five years "fixing" a locomotive that, say, the 4449/261/2926/etc. groups could set right for $1-2 million, it does two things:

    *It gives the "bean counters" at UP the excuse to abandon not only 4014 and 3985, but the entire steam and excursion program for a ridiculous non-return on a too-high "investment";
    *It gives anyone else with such ambitions a frightening excuse to never "go there"--CSX, BNSF, NS, any rail museum, etc.




BINGO!


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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:05 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 710
Jeff:

It is eerily similar to what is going on some college campuses today.

There is a certain segment of the board that does not want to see, hear, or believe anything that might upset them or contradict their personal view of an issue.

Facts and logic are wasted on people like that, but they will always be with us.

A lot of sound, experienced people lurk here but don't post because they don't want and don't need to become a target for every person who has his own set of facts that may, but usually don't, have anything to do with the reality of a given situation.


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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:23 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:29 pm
Posts: 26
Donald Cormack wrote:
Lincoln Penn wrote:

This thread has already corrected some common misconceptions about such things as
staybolt cap removal and when it is and is not required.



Indeed it has. As Frisco1522 said, "These posts should serve as valuable information to other steam operations and groups wishing to restore and operate and not as personal attacks." I am grateful for those who have taken the time to explain some wholly complex aspects of modern locomotive boilers based on relevant, actual experience.


You obviously have not read this thread in it's entirety. I suggest you go back and do so. There is constructive conversation regarding modern locomotive boilers that a LOT of people who are in this industry can benefit from. Some of the members here do not have the luxury of being near or know individuals directly associated with mainline steam locomotives. RYPN can serve as an invaluable tool to bridge that gap.

DC



Gentlemen

I am not saying that information on why stay bolt caps being replaced is not an important discussion here, hey I would be all for that. The problem is that, and this was my point, no one from the Union Pacific has stated what they found for the reason why to replace the newest caps and firebox sheets. This then gets into criticism about the current Steam Department or how the UP is wasting money. Like their quote says " We can Handle it" I am sure 844 will run again.
While I do not claim to be a steam expert, I do have steam experience both tourist and main line, and have been through two forum four rebuilds. So information like what's going on with rebuilding old boilers is always informative and others experience is very educational, just not when it goes back to the same old mud slinging.
I have read the whole thread and yet again somehow it's gone back to which big boy should had been picked along with replacing perfectly good parts on 844.

Hope everyone has a safe and Happy Thanksgiving.

Dan


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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:37 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:26 pm
Posts: 44
Just a bit of history: UP used soft water and still had to wash an 800 boiler every 10 days. Its all about keeping on top of things.

Tom Hamilton


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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:07 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:25 pm
Posts: 12
I'd like to ground this discussion as a technical issue to learn from. It seems logical that the RR evaluated the expense of applying that many flex stays for maximizing fire box/combustion chamber integrity to gain reliability. Although flexible stays shift with the sheets that they restrain, they do expand and contract eventually breaking at the stress cycle limit. The three piece removable cap style simplifies replacement.

Attachment:
File comment: 3 Piece Flexible Stay
Flex Stay.pdf [115.49 KiB]
Downloaded 73 times


So it seems that the copper gasket and the surface condition of the sleeve and cap seal ring seats are what keeps boiler water which is at vaporization pressure or saturated steam from leaking into the lagging. If one finds rust streaks coming from the caps, isn't an appropriate fix to resurface the sleeves and replace the cap and seal ring? Even if there is no evidence of a leak, isn't it best practice to do this maintenance during a lagging off boiler inspection?

Let's discuss boiler inspections and staybolt, sleeve, cap and seal ring technology.


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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:20 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:53 pm
Posts: 347
Location: Casa Grande, Arizona USA
I asked Mr. Tolich what else he saw in Cheyenne. This is his reply:

"They are concentrating on 844 at present and want to get it back in operation before pulling 4014 apart. Although they do want to have 4014 in action by 2017. 3985 is in the other shed with all its cladding off but not having any work done to it. Its tender is sitting outside by the turntable."


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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:32 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:37 pm
Posts: 1055
Location: Pacific, MO
I think its time for me to wander off into the sunset.
Happy Thanksgiving RYPN.


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 Post subject: Re: Recent images of the UP 844
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:46 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 710
Frisco1522 wrote:
I think its time for me to wander off into the sunset.
Happy Thanksgiving RYPN.


Yep. You, me and a couple of others who lurk here and laugh at some of the goofy stuff some people come up with can take our decades of combined steam experience someplace else.

It's falling on deaf ears and closed minds here, anyway.

I am reminded of people who try to fix things that are not broken, and end up breaking them in the process by trying to fix them when they should have been left alone.

Idle curiosity is not a valid reason to take things apart to the last rivet, nut, bolt and washer just because someone wonders what the inside looks like.

Happy Thanksgiving, Don.


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