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 Post subject: CSX Pulled Switch To B&O Museum?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:15 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:24 am
Posts: 43
Location: Cleveland, OH
Has anyone heard that CSX has landlocked the B&0 museum because they removed the switch to their lead?


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 Post subject: Re: CSX Pulled Switch To B&O Museum?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:53 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:29 pm
Posts: 318
Why would this surprise anybody?

T7


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 Post subject: Re: CSX Pulled Switch To B&O Museum?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:46 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:02 pm
Posts: 973
Location: Back in NE Ohio
As long as they left it able to be put back without a lot of trouble, maybe not a big deal. The Mt. Clare "branch" (CSX doesn't call anything a "branch"), and especially the place where that switch is are really in a bad area, so perhaps vandalism has become more of an issue? How often does the museum need to move stuff in and out of it's facility? They no longer have equipment in "A-Yard" anymore, right?


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 Post subject: Re: CSX Pulled Switch To B&O Museum?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:28 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8353
Location: Baltimore, MD
Consider another possibility:

If true (and I'll confirm when I get a chance), it makes the Museum operation "insular" and not subject to FRA oversight......... right?


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 Post subject: Re: CSX Pulled Switch To B&O Museum?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:04 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:34 am
Posts: 419
Location: Port Jefferson, NY (LIRR MP 57.5)
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
Consider another possibility:

If true (and I'll confirm when I get a chance), it makes the Museum operation "insular" and not subject to FRA oversight......... right?


But isn't there still a grade crossing at Arlington Avenue? It's been a long time since I was there so maybe this is incorrect.


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 Post subject: Re: CSX Pulled Switch To B&O Museum?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:08 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
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Location: Baltimore, MD
The Museum has closed the street crossing to auto traffic during some special events in the past. I don't know if that is enough to make it "insular" or not, and might depend on who's interpreting the rulebook.....


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 Post subject: Re: CSX Pulled Switch To B&O Museum?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:54 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2447
Location: S.F. Bay Area
If the FRA's interpreting it, the closure has to be the normal condition.

It is not insular if any of the track
- crosses at grade a public street, railway or runway that is in use
- crosses OVER a public street or navigable waterway (under doesn't count)
- operates within 30 feet of a general-system road

Even if it's not insular, it's subject to "FRA-Lite" treatment, not a big deal.


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 Post subject: Re: CSX Pulled Switch To B&O Museum?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:29 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:43 am
Posts: 421
Location: Floyd, AR
A locked derail keeps you separate. Pulling the switch leaves you stranded. However, many years ago, a rumor was started that the UP pulled the switch to the Arkansas Railroad Museum. Nothing could be further from the truth, but the rumor still has legs today.

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Robert Longhofer,
Board Member, Cotton Belt Rail Historical Society, Arkansas Railroad Museum, steam engine SSW819.
Any information or opinions I express are my own, and are not the views of the CBRHS or anyone else, unless explicitly stated otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: CSX Pulled Switch To B&O Museum?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:43 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2075
I would think if it hasnt been used for some time, it might be removed for safety reasons, with enough crew it can be replaced immediately.

765 move from Lawton park the day previous track was cut and a temporary track made to move the engine out the next day, after it was pulled out it was immediatly removed while the engine sat guarded overnite for the move out the next day.

it isnt disaster if they do this, probably a phone call if they need a move something might happen (cross fingers...eyes CSX carefully)


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 Post subject: Re: CSX Pulled Switch To B&O Museum?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:34 am 

Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:56 am
Posts: 50
When I was on the train crew this past Saturday the switch was still there. There had been a rail missing for awhile after CSX had a derailment right nearby and took a replacement rail from our side of the derail by mistake. There's no plan to have the switch removed, and last I knew we're going to handle the circus train animal cars in March so if not before, it will be in service by then.


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 Post subject: Re: CSX Pulled Switch To B&O Museum?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:23 pm 
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Location: Pac NW, via North Florida
C. Edwards wrote:
When I was on the train crew this past Saturday the switch was still there.
There you go, question answered. Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: CSX Pulled Switch To B&O Museum?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:58 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 710
A locked derail does NOT make an operation insular.


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 Post subject: Re: CSX Pulled Switch To B&O Museum?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 4:25 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 12:13 pm
Posts: 398
Location: Baltimore. MD
Lincoln Penn wrote:
A locked derail does NOT make an operation insular.

But it can make an operation non-insular and non-general system. It really depends if the railroad in question is part of the "general system of freight railroads." If the museum accepts freight cars such as an industry (carload of coal for own use, equipment in and out for maintenance or collection) it can be non-general. The animal move for RB,B&B is more for publicity and public service, I believe there is no commerce involved.

FRA no longer requires the removal of a stick of rail to insure status.

Let me say that a fair amount of enforcement discretion is used as regards the B&O Railroad Museum. Arlington Street is supposed to be closed with jersey barriers when operations are happening.

Steve

See jersey barriers stored here: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2839936 ... a=!3m1!1e3


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 Post subject: Re: CSX Pulled Switch To B&O Museum?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:05 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2447
Location: S.F. Bay Area
SZuiderveen wrote:
But it can make an operation non-insular and non-general system. It really depends if the railroad in question is part of the "general system of freight railroads." If the museum accepts freight cars such as an industry (carload of coal for own use, equipment in and out for maintenance or collection) it can be non-general. The animal move for RB,B&B is more for publicity and public service, I believe there is no commerce involved.

FRA no longer requires the removal of a stick of rail to insure status.

I honestly doubt they ever did. Certainly nothing in 209 Appendix A suggests the FRA ever asked anyone to vandalize track over purportedly a safety rule. However, I find that many people are spooked into doing stupid things out of fear of the government. I suspect "turn a rail" is one of those that became a meme.

Example: in 1991, Coe Rail borrowed my hy-rail truck to take the FRA guy on a tour of their line. Coe and FRA agreed to stop the inspection at the Haggerty Lumber switch where freight operations stopped but heritage trains continued. Now Larry Coe is one of those "smartest guy in the room" types who doesn't cower from authority and asks for what he is entitled to. So I gather he pressed for, or simply understood, FRA's meaning, which in 1991 was that "track on which only heritage passenger operations occur is not part of the general system". No rail turn obviously, no derail, just a notional "line in the sand".

So "don't need a derail/rail removal" hasn't changed since 1991.

Derails are irrelevant. It doesn't matter where you say the line is, it matters where you drag revenue freight cars destined to third parties.

If I recall, there is no derail on the Niles Canyon Railway interchange track, it ties to UPRR's #3 track, normally used by MoW equipment. There is a derail to protect the main and siding from track 3 which is tied to the signal system and will be required for PTC. The NCRy interchange is off-general-system but track 3 is in the general system (because it's used to serve NCRy). Both on the same side of the derail.

Quote:
Let me say that a fair amount of enforcement discretion is used as regards the B&O Railroad Museum. Arlington Street is supposed to be closed with jersey barriers when operations are happening.

Read Appendix A, "temporal separation" is not allowed in determining the general/off-general/insular category. Either you have a grade crossing, or you don't. My interpretation of B&O's situation is they are "not insular but not general system" owing to that crossing. Which gets you 95% of the regulatory benefit of being insular.

I see little enforcement discretion in the FRA. Congress gave FRA a mandate to "ease up on heritage railways" and FRA responded by exempting them from the bulk of 49 CFR (in 49 CFR 2xx.3 Applicability) insofar as their heritage operations. Meaning, they are relieved of the picayune point-by-point inspections and reporting that general system roads must endure. FRA's emergency order authority mandates inspections solely for the purpose of stopping imminently dangerous practices, but those are informal "lay of the land" inspections.


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