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 Post subject: Re: LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman Tour Route 1969-1973
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:54 am 

Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 1:33 pm
Posts: 286
Location: Oroville, CA
Somewhere, buried under many boxes (picture the Government storage warehouse at the end of "Raiders of the lost Ark") I have a copy of Western Railroader that talks about the Flying Scotsman's travels on the west coast. If you can find an index of that magazine, you might get some real dates. You might also check the WP family magazine (I think they had one) as well as the SP one (I KNOW they had one!).
I wish I could be of more help! The Oroville Mercury-Register Newspaper would have some stuff on it too--especially of the roundhouse fire. Their archives may be at the CSU, Chico Library special collections. Hmm, check with the Portola Railroad museum!!!

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 Post subject: Re: LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman Tour Route 1969-1973
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:47 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8507
Location: Baltimore, MD
Aha. Thanks for the prod.

The Md. Rail Heritage Library HAS a quite complete set of Western Railroader, thanks to the bequeathal of the late Lee Rogers and this stubborn archivist's insistence on retaining the set.......

[wonders if he can go digging this afternoon.....]


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 Post subject: Re: LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman Tour Route 1969-1973
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:19 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2182
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
dinwitty wrote:
Trains has everything on DVD now. I have mags in that period here it will take some browsing.

Do you take me to be a lazy bum that doesn't do his own work?

As I have already noted, I have laboriously pored through the back numbers of Trains, Railroad Magazine, and even Rail Classics, to find little of use after the original publicity blast of 1969. I even have a separate file of the original magazines with features on it (about two). Railpace, Rails Northeast, etc. didn't exist at the time, and about the only other hope might be the earliest issues of CTC Board which our library doesn't have.



Trying to recall hows or whys, but a lot of phone calls down the grapevine is how people found out where it was headed. Its like newspaper stories a better bet.


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 Post subject: Re: LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman Tour Route 1969-1973
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:57 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 958
And this is a huge cautionary tale why preserving ephemera can be so important. Much of the scheduling -- both of the train and of the response of railfans -- was ad hoc. That's not the kind of thing people want to remember about a special event; it's like having to look numbers up in the phone book for emergency repair -- you're not going to remember the whole process in detail afterward, or even the dates. And now when it's important to remember... it's almost half a century later and so much is irrecoverable.

Take the 2102 thread -- my first fantrip with actual big steam was 2102 in New Jersey, in what I remember as '72 or maybe '73, right in the middle of a hole that appears to contain no such trip. I remember details of the trip - in Karl Zimmermann's yellow squareback, standing on a bridge right in the exhaust column, being surprised at how shiny the little pieces of rained-down coal were, seeing the reverse for a runby ... but where? I always thought I could go back to the Central Scrutinizer's records and find all the details. Now I come to find that I can't, and in very little time there won't be anyone left who would know.

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Last edited by Overmod on Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman Tour Route 1969-1973
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:40 am 

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:28 am
Posts: 215
Location: Suffolk, UK
I've had a look through my copies of Railway Magazine for 1970/71/72 and have found a number of references to the tour, some of which were concerned with the proposed itineraries whilst in the US/Canada, but also some photos and reports of movements that actually took place, so have concentrated on these in the hope they may fill in some of the "jigsaw". The relevant items are below, according to which months edition they appeared in.........

1970

OCT 70 - Mentions the rear trailing bogie on the loco derailed at Waco, TX on 18th June due to a broken journal. Repairs were made at the ATSF Cleburne shops to the journal after removal from the loco.

NOV 70 - Two photos of the loco at Spadina Roundhouse, Toronto, ON whilst there for "Boiler Washout" on 28th August.

DEC 70 - Centre spread of magazine has 5 photos in Canada -
Photo at Spadina, prior to departure for Ottawa.
Photo at Belleville, ON en route to Ottawa on 8th Sept.
Photo at Montreal on 28 Sept leaving for Kingston and one en route in a rock cutting.
Photo at Kingston, ON where it was on display for 2 days.

1971

SEPT 71 - Undated report quoted from the Montreal Star Saying that CNR were waiting for the Owner of Flying Scotsman to "come and pick his loco up" (!) as it had been left at one of their roundhouses (presumably Spadina?) for most of the year...

OCT 71 - Report that the loco left Spadina on 14th August, and retrieved most of its train from Bathurst Yard (Toronto) before proceeding to Bronte (Toronto area) to pick up Pullman Car "Lydia" and the Devon Belle Observation car from the Procor company siding there.
The train then carried on via Hamilton to Fort Erie (ON) where it crossed the International bridge to Buffalo and the US

NOV 71 - A couple of photos from the above move from Clarkson and Fort Erie, ON.

DEC 71 - Was observed at Cheney (nr Spokane) WAS on 12th September en route to Pasco.
Left Pasco on 13th Sept for Eugene, OR and then on to San Diego.
Worked Oroville to Oakland, CA on 27th Sept.

1972

MAR 72 - Mention that the loco was being fitted with Westinghouse air brakes so it could haul US stock on the SF waterfront service.

AUG 72 - A 3 page article by George Hinchcliffe, Manager, Flying Scotsman Enterprises, on the operations on the SF waterfront, which started on 18th March.

SEPT 72 - Front cover of magazine has an undated colour photo of the loco on the SF waterfront service with the preserved Scottish built sailing ship (whose name escapes me at the moment) in the background at the maritime museum.

DEC 72 - Mentions the Pegler bankruptcy hearing in London and the fact that Flying Scotsman and train is currently at "an Army depot in Stockton, California"........


Hope that little lot has been some use.....

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 Post subject: Re: LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman Tour Route 1969-1973
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:33 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8507
Location: Baltimore, MD
"70000", that has indeed been of at least some use.

However, it appears that the dates stated from Washington State are from the intended schedule, not the actual observed schedule, as the train fell over a day behind schedule thanks to the loading of lignite instead of actual coal at an unspecified point in North Dakota. Also, the train never did make it to San Diego.

So, yes, even "official, trustworthy" media sources of this era have to be eyed with a bit of suspicion and scepticism....

Also, I have consulted the Western Railroader archive at the Md. Rail Heritage Library, and found that issues 391 through 393 are missing from the archive, as is all but two issues after 1973. So, if anyone is in a position to confirm whether or not one of these missing issues is the purported "Flying Scotsman special issue," be my guest and I thank you in advance. (And if anyone wants to donate a stack of WRs from 1973 on............)


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 Post subject: Re: LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman Tour Route 1969-1973
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:31 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 1:33 pm
Posts: 286
Location: Oroville, CA
I wondered about those reports. They do hint at the financial troubles they were having. Also, I understood that the Scotsman spent some time in the Oroville roundhouse. Sam (Owner of Solano Railcar, who had the roundhouse under lease) was a railroad historian, and likely hosted the stay. I don't remember him telling me about any work being done, mostly that he was very happy "she" wasn't in the roundhouse when it came down. That could have been an international incidence! BTW, I was one of the last people to ride the table in Oroville. I've lost track of where it is now, or if it's even intact anymore.

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Steamcerely,
David Dewey
Help save the last overnight steamboat, Delta Queen!
Write your congressman to support and co-sponsor House Resolution HR-619. This bill only grants her permission to run; there is no cost to us taxpayers.


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 Post subject: Re: LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman Tour Route 1969-1973
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:36 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 2:46 pm
Posts: 544
Location: St. Louis, MO
When I rode behind #4472 in San Francisco in 1972 I saw Alan Pegler, it's owner, and heard him say that they had "gone bust." They were starting from a point just a block away from Fisherman's Wharf, but enough people were just not coming over to them. The train might as well have been a mile away when it was in sight. He even found some traveling Brits with a steam traction engine who put a banner on it advertising the train but nothing he did seemed to help.

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St. Louis


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