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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:05 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:07 pm
Posts: 454
Location: B'more Maryland
Can I ask what everyone in this thread is discussing?

I mean, what's the point?

It strikes me as though, if the community you're in the middle of does not want your operation, you're NEVER going to have much success.

It's a shame that so much time, effort, and money will go to waste, but what's the point of continuing to fight a losing battle when there are so many other winnable ones?


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:33 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:59 pm
Posts: 113
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
Can I ask what everyone in this thread is discussing?

I mean, what's the point?

It strikes me as though, if the community you're in the middle of does not want your operation, you're NEVER going to have much success.

It's a shame that so much time, effort, and money will go to waste, but what's the point of continuing to fight a losing battle when there are so many other winnable ones?


I'm pretty sure people are passionate about this situation because the final outcome sets precedent for future cases nationwide. If they are able to ram the trail trough and tear up an active railroad line then we as a community will have a much harder fight in the future preventing organized groups from forcing the same thing through elsewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 10:53 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2097
The Adirondack railroad is a functional line in place -not currently abandoned- to Lake Placid and you want to rip the rails out.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:06 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:55 pm
Posts: 688
Location: Warren, PA
It's also a full-blown, frontal assault on the National Historic Register process, as the entire railroad is nominated and approved since 1992. The Remsen-Thendara track upgrades were partially paid with TEA-21 funding due to the eligibility of the corridor under this national register nomination.

The attempt that the state can remove the track at will, using public funds, despite their own state register, and previous register status, is both precedent setting and chilling to all preservation activities, rail or not. One of the major issues with the current court fight is how you 'mitigate' this destruction when it is not necessary; normal mitigation is accepted when the artifact or structure or whatever is simply not salvageable or moveable - not a short-term economic experiment unnecessarily destroying the artifact or site in its wake. In my book its about as bad as tearing down Independence Hall to put up a skate park in the name of economic development for a disadvantaged neighborhood.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 11:47 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:07 pm
Posts: 454
Location: B'more Maryland
My point is more, who are we arguing with here? It's like we're making suggestions, but just suggestions to "the cloud".


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 4:51 pm 

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:29 am
Posts: 214
Hmm... Perhaps the cloud is listening?
Alternatively, perhaps the railroad is listening?....and is bringing up anything of interest to their lawyers....
Perhaps the trail crowd is listening, for their own nefarious, dark, disturbing purposes?
In any case, you never know who is checking these discussions out...and you never know if it will have no effect...a good effect...or a bad one... But, at least the discussion serves to alert and enlighten anyone who might be in a similar position in most any preservation related field, not just railroad...


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 6:04 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:15 pm
Posts: 137
Location: At large
I know for a fact that people from the railroad and trail backers monitor conversations here and elsewhere. Also, if you believe rumors, people from New York State check social media from time to time.

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Matt Giardino
ALCO Historical & Technical Society


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 6:01 am 

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:30 am
Posts: 98
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
Can I ask what everyone in this thread is discussing?

I mean, what's the point?

It strikes me as though, if the community you're in the middle of does not want your operation, you're NEVER going to have much success.

It's a shame that so much time, effort, and money will go to waste, but what's the point of continuing to fight a losing battle when there are so many other winnable ones?


As one of those locals, I can safely state that's not accurate. There's a lot of support for the rail line as well up here.

And many of the small and vocal group that state that they're against it, arrived at that decision all but arbitrarily and could be easily swayed in the other direction. The St. Lawrence County government for example didn't even know that the Adirondack Scenic Railroad existed or that it ran a few miles within their jurisdiction until ARTA representatives showed up during one county meeting.

Yet under the leadership of Karen St. Hilaire, the county board voted to support them that very night without attempting to learn anything more about it or approaching the Adirondack Scenic Railroad for their input, allowing ARTA to put down St. Lawrence County as a trail support in favor of lifting the rails (Not to mention that the public had no idea what was about to happen, which essentially meant that the county didn't seek our input at all.).

They essentially gave their endorsement to the first person that asked for it. Such hasty decisions aren't the type that would then be stood behind passionately with no willingness of reconsidering it. In fact some of these local governments have done just that after initially voicing their approval of ripping up the rails and now are solidly behind the rail option.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 9:59 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2097
The people who were there supporting the rail will have to write the county in protest of their hasty irresponsible decision. Aside from that the whole project is being held up for more input as noted earlier in this thread. Go write them.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:56 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3054
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
From the Adirondack Daily Enterprise:

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.co ... -railroad/

Of particular interest is this following comment from Keith Gorgas, a bus driver for Rail Explorers, the railbike company that was in the Adirondacks but (so far) has been chased to Rhode Island. His comment about reduced sales and bonuses may be a sign of what the economic impact of this railroad and Rail Explorers was.

Quote:
Keith Gorgas · Tour Bus Driver at Cramden Coach

Good response, and pretty obvious. Mr. Beamish's [Dick Beamish, trail proponent, wants to see a part of the Adirondack Park become a wilderness area, no people, no infrastructure] blather, while what we've come to expect, is obviously not put to the same scrutiny that submissions by people who want both a rail and a trail are. My wife works at Stewarts, and they were told that there is no way they will get monthly bonuses this year, because with the RR and REX [Rail Explorers] gone, they expect to come no where near previous year's sales. Most of the other merchants in town are expecting significant drop offs in sales this year.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:37 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 465
The opinion article J3a linked to was a small part of a remarkable exchange in the Adirondack Daily Enterprise. First was this brief letter that the paper printed on May 23, 2017:
Quote:
Why take out the train?
To the editor:

Preventing the Lake Placid-to-Saranac train from running this season would keep passengers and crew from enjoying the ride and merchants from getting extra business. Why would Albany hurt people for no apparent reason?

Sincerely yours,

Charles W. McCutchen
Bethesda, Maryland
Mr. McCutchen's two sentences were followed by a thirteen paragraph long opinion column from Dick Beamish/Adirondack Recreational Trail Advocates, published on May 30, 2017: Rail-trails celebrated as ‘vibrant sign of renewal’

Walter Ordway then wrote a response to Mr. Beamish, which was published on June 6, 2017: Bad spin on the railroad


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:01 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2097
Beamish is doing a "Sell Job". He's working thru all the issues and trying to find the "Sell" to promote the project.

This country is about choices, many countries stores have few selection of groceries to buy at a store, this country is rich. It can do both train and trail. Let the public decide which way they want to go you cannot enforce the issue on the public, it is their choice train or trail, you do both.

I could walk down Beamish's post and debunk it all.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:54 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 465
The Adirondack Daily Enterprise published a long column by Larry Roth: Things you would never know


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:25 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:57 pm
Posts: 162
Location: Eastampton, NJ
That's a great article. I hope it makes a difference.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:40 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:01 pm
Posts: 12
If there is enough support for this rail line, get the STB involved in the process. Find/create/bribe a business needing 1 carload per week to move onto the farthest end of the line. Once that happens, the line will stay there.

Nobody cuts timber, needs petroleum products in tank car lots? Offer to haul it for free for the first year.

When Wal-Mart moves into town, the local eco dev people throw money at them. Why not in this case?


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