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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:10 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:52 pm
Posts: 909
Hi,

Good comments.

One other comment. It is amazing how many Live Steamer hobbyists ARE interested in the Cagneys and MTC equipment (and how many are also railfans).

Doug vV


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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:10 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3013
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Bobharbison wrote:
Search Railpictures.net for Disneyland and Cedar Point, both of which run arguably "real" locomotives, on lines that serve a true transportation function, and that get just a few (million) more visitors per year and you find only a handful of shots of either one. Aside from the admittedly steep admission price, these are some of the easiest steam operations in the world to photograph, they run trains like streetcars, and taking photos is not only permitted, it's encouraged, with plenty of easy access to great shots.


I'm not familiar with the Cedar Point railroad, but this video suggests a rather interesting operation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DisJ3rMZoNE

One aspect that surprised me is that this railroad, unlike some others, apparently regularly uncouples its locomotives from trains for servicing, which requires recoupling later on. What makes this common action uncommon is that this railroad uses link and pin couplers! This is visible at about 1:38:00 in the video.

EWrice wrote:
It is definitely at matter of personal preference and interpretation. Personally, I like many park engines. I think Cedar point has the most attractive and we'll balanced looking engines I have ever seen. Just enough color to make it fun, just enough varnished wood and polished brass to keep it classy, and just enough black to keep it real. Don't get me wrong. Disney engines are great machines, they just look like dressed up main line power, where CP&LE engines have that "Porter" charm that only a plantation engine can.


And I concur with Mr. Rice as well. This railroad's engines, and the Remlinger Farm Crowns, exemplify what better finishing, not restricted to black, can do for park engines. Interestingly, this is also the general look of the original Disneyland engines in California, though the Florida engines don't quite stay this close to the "source material."

The Cedar Point line also has relatively subdued colors for its passenger cars, all of which add to a more authentic look--and to me, a more pleasing one--even if the cars are the typical bench cars used for the fast loading and unloading required of a park railroad.

Final conclusion--park railroads are indeed "real," especially in steam, and perhaps should be looked at a little more closely, appreciated a little more, than what we do.

Now, how do we get a little closer to "real" in style and feel with MTC G-16s and Chance C. P. Huntingtons?


Last edited by J3a-614 on Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:35 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3013
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Let us also recall that the Cedar Point & Lake Erie has apparently been around for a while--long enough to generate heritage and stories.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVOk8qi7Xfg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJxOiC2ghpY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHSuS-lNLVE

There is a line-up of locomotives at 1:10 in the third video that looks quite impressive--and authentic, as Mr. Rice would comment on above.


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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:12 am 

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:48 pm
Posts: 60
Heck yeah we have heritage, we even had a website dedicated to the CP&LE. Unfortunately it succumbed to some severe spamming and lost a substantial amount of it's content. We still have most of the material, hoping to reboot the site someday. BTW a number of our engineers have gone on to work for "the real" railroads over the years.

My screen name Image


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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:50 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:18 am
Posts: 467
Location: Wall, NJ
Some place here I have a book on the early history of Cedar Point which includes information on the 15” gauge railroad, used primarily for amusement, and a 2’ gauge railroad to move luggage and coal. This was all well before the the CP&LE RR came along. The attached is of my engine, a 1907 15” gauge Herschell Spillman running on the Cedar Point Miniature Railway. I have the original card and believe it is dated 1914 but would have to double check. This poor engine has been floating around the country in pieces for the better part of 70 years and came to me following the death of the previous owner, Dom Visconti. With a little help from some friends and Strasburg, we hope to have this engine running again in the next year or two.

I have the family’s name who ran the 15” gauge railway and keep meaning to see if I can track them down and perhaps come up with some additional photos of the Herschell. I would be interested in learning a bit more about the 2’ gauge operation as well.
J.R. May


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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:51 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3013
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Jennie K, is this the site?

http://www.cplerr.com/

Looks like you do have some people who take your road seriously.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedar_Poi ... e_Railroad

http://www.iridetheharlemline.com/2013/ ... -railroad/


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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 1:03 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:18 am
Posts: 467
Location: Wall, NJ
> BTW a number of our engineers have gone on to work for "the real" railroads over the years.

In watching the video, I see mention is made of George Robertson and indeed George did graduate ultimately to Conrail. I don’t recall which full sized railroad he started with, Erie perhaps. George got his start at the Pine Creek RR here in NJ and for many, many years a photo of the Albert was displayed in the station office. For all I know, its still there. It was as of about 2003 or so anyway. In some ways, you might say that park railroading (I suspect that is a new term) is perhaps something like AAA baseball. A lot of young guys, and gals, got their start running at places like Pine Creek or Cedar Point and moved on up tonnage wise to some full sized railroading.
J.R.


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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 3:47 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3013
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
JR May wrote:
> BTW a number of our engineers have gone on to work for "the real" railroads over the years.

In some ways, you might say that park railroading (I suspect that is a new term) is perhaps something like AAA baseball. A lot of young guys, and gals, got their start running at places like Pine Creek or Cedar Point and moved on up tonnage wise to some full sized railroading.
J.R.


I would think not only park railroading, but some heritage railroads would produce excellent railroaders. Think of how challenging some heritage roads can be, particularly Cumbres & Toltec with its 4% grades, and Cass Scenic which averages 5% and hits 8% and even 11%.

I would think if you could railroad on either of those roads, you could railroad anywhere.


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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 3:50 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:48 pm
Posts: 60
J3a-614 wrote:
Jennie K, is this the site?

http://www.cplerr.com/

Looks like you do have some people who take your road seriously.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedar_Poi ... e_Railroad

http://www.iridetheharlemline.com/2013/ ... -railroad/



That's what's left of it, we had a rather extensive photo section plus a forum. These were the components that were destroyed in the spamming attacks.

Jennie K is currently stored out back of the enginehouse at Knotts Berry Farm. She was sent out there to be evaluated for refurbishment. She was withdrawn from service at the end of the 1988 season. In the opinion of those of us that were there at the time she was the second best runner we had, the first being Albert.


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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:38 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3013
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Earlier in this thread (page 4) I asked if there was any information on the Hershey [electric] miniature railroad, and Drew Black (Weekend Railroader) supplied some information and photos.

Since then some other material on this apparently one-off park railroad (that could be considered the most realistic of all in that it didn't pretend to be a miniature of a full sized railroad) has come to light.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniature ... ersheypark)

http://blog.hersheyarchives.org/2013/09 ... e-railway/

EDIT: For some reason the link to the Wikipedia item on this line doesn't work, so here is the text for reference:

Miniature Railroad (Hersheypark)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Miniature Railroad was a ride at Hersheypark from 1910 until 1971. The train ran a course along Park Boulevard, near the intersection with Park Avenue, around Spring Creek into Comet Hollow. It was the second ride Milton S. Hershey purchased for his park, after buying a carousel. While the railroad is no longer in operation, the train has been undergoing restoration since 2007, and was first publicly displayed in 2011.

Contents [hide]
1 History
1.1 1909 - 1970
1.2 1971
1.3 2007: Restoration
2 References
3 See also
History[edit]
1909 - 1970[edit]
Milton S. Hershey, owner of what was then called Hershey Park, had made the decision to purchase a carousel for his amusement park in 1908.[1] Hershey decided to place the ride on the western side of the park, a considerable distance from the town center of Hershey, Pennsylvania. As part of placing the ride in that location, he was determined to purchase a transport ride to get visitors of the park from the town center to the carousel.[2] In 1909, Hershey had learned that a small resort outside of Lancaster, Pennsylvania called Peoples Bathing Beach, owned by John B. Peoples,[3] was opening a miniature electric railroad. Hershey went to the bathing beach to see it for himself. Impressed with the ride, he decided to purchase one for the park.[4]

Purchased on May 8, 1909, for a sum of US$3,150.00 (equivalent to $82,962 in 2015),[4] construction of the ride began in July 1910.[4] The ride opened for its first run in September 1910.[4] The ride operated a single track with no switches, which meant the track could only hold one train.[5] When the ride opened in 1910, there was one station located near the intersection of Park Boulevard and Park Avenue, which never changed throughout the remainder of the ride's existence. The other station was located in what is today western Comet Hollow near the carousel and the original pool.[2] When that pool was closed, drained and filled, following the 1928 season, the station in the western end of Comet Hollow was moved to the eastern end of Comet Hollow along the creek, near the entrance of the Mill Chute, a log flume ride. The station remained in that location until 1950, when it was moved to the southern end of Comet Hollow, adjacent to the Comet and parallel to Spring Creek.[6]

1971[edit]
Following the 1970 season, Hershey Park began a redevelopment plan which called for the park to become a theme park. Hershey Park was renamed Hersheypark, and the park went through a number of other changes, including removing a variety of old rides.[5] The Miniature Railroad, however, continued to operate despite the addition of the park's gate in 1971. The addition of the gate and the location of the ride placed a portion of the track within the park gate, and a portion of the track outside the park gate. The Comet Hollow station was inside the park, and the Park Boulevard station was outside the gate. Guests of the park could get their hand stamped so they would be able to renter the park by taking the Miniature Railroad back to Comet Hollow.

Towards the end of the 1971 season, the ride fell victim to vandalism. Vandals placed objects on the tracks, which caused the train to derail. The train was damaged and not able to be used for operation. As a result, the ride was placed in storage for the 1972 season.[4] However, the park still wanted to restore and operate the ride. One such concept was developed after the park opened the Rhineland section of the park in 1973. The ride would have been called the Rhineland Express.[7] However, due to the extensive damage done to train, combined with slow economic years in 1973 and 1974, among other plans cancelled, the plan to bring back the Miniature Railroad in some fashion was abandoned, and the ride was never repaired or refurbished.

2007: Restoration[edit]
Hersheypark celebrated its 100th season in 2007. This sparked an interest in seeing the Miniature Railroad restored.[4] Later that year, Friends of the Hershey Trolley, in conjunction with Hershey Entertainment & Resorts (owner of Hersheypark), announced that they were restoring the Miniature Railroad train. One car was placed on display in 2007, and again in the 2011 Hershey Memorial Day Parade.[8]

References[edit]
1. Hershey Press. 1 July 1910. Missing or empty |title= (help)
2. Hershey Community Archives Chronology Database
3. "Rocky Springs Park History". Retrieved 17 December 2014.
4. Rhoads, Jr., Don (2011). "Hershey Park's Miniature Railway" (PDF). Railway Museum Quarterly/Trainline. Tourist Railway Association and the Association of Railway Museums (6): 16–17. Retrieved 16 March 2013.
5. Jacques, Jr., Charles J. (1997). Hersheypark: The Sweetness of Success. Amusement Park Journal. ISBN 096143922X.
6. "Minny Railroad Staion, Wheel New at Hershey". Billboard. 1 April 1950.
7. Tim Aurentz (12 March 1973). "Hersheypark - New Face, Same Fun". Lebanon Daily News.
8. Hershey Derry Township Historical Society (30 May 2011). "Hershey Miniature Railway". Retrieved 3 February 2012.
See also[edit]


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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 3:10 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3013
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Here's some other material that showed up for the park railway at Kennywood, also mentioned earlier in the thread:

http://www.worldsfaircommunity.org/topi ... wf-legacy/


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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:30 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3013
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Just something to add to the file, and not start a new thread.

http://www.ocregister.com/2017/07/28/di ... he-public/


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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:55 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:05 pm
Posts: 546
Here is what I found on the three Kennywood locos:

Vulcan
4255 2/27/1939 B G/M 36” 49hp 20” Herc 10000# 7-61-A5
Trip Around the World, Inc –for-
New York World Fair, New York, N Y
Kennywood Park, West Mifflin, Pa

4256 2/27/1939 B G/M 36” 49hp 20” Herc 10000# 7-61-A5
Trip Around the World, Inc –for-
New York Worlds Fair, New York, N Y
Kennywood Park, West Mifflin, Pa

4257 2/27/1939 B G/M 36” 49hp 20” Herc 10000# 7-61-A5
Trip Around the World, Inc –for-
New York Worlds Fair, New York, N Y
Kennywood Park, West Mifflin, Pa

These three locomotives were constructed to haul visitors around the 1939-1940 New York Worlds
Fair. They were lettered “Gimbel’s Flyer” [Gimbels being a major East Coast Department Store]
As the trains traversed the fair grounds, they had a sound system that played
“The Sidewalks of New York “


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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:48 am 

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:48 pm
Posts: 60
When the park stopped running two trains one of the three locomotives was sold, which one exactly I don't recall


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 Post subject: Re: Are Park Trains "Real" Trains?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:10 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:05 pm
Posts: 546
The third Gimbels Flyer is on display at Oaks, PA.

https://fineartamerica.com/featured/str ... annon.html


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