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 Post subject: GG1s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:25 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:52 pm
Posts: 909
Hi,

I believe there are 13 GG1s preserved.

With the PRR T1 project going on, several firms are claimed to be on board to cast the various parts including the frame. Maybe contacting the T1 and seeing about casting new truck frames for a single GG1 could be done.

The add modern electronics to the GG1 and there would be an operable GG1 - just not all original parts.

This was inspired by the PB1 (ex-D&RGW) thread.

Doug vV


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 Post subject: Re: GG1s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:27 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:12 am
Posts: 652
Location: cheyenne
Nice thought but unlikely, amazing things like this only happen in Britain.

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: GG1s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:51 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:58 pm
Posts: 1190
Location: Chicago USA
Yes, but look what's happening with the KM.

Much more cost effective to take a GG1 off its super-trucks (as I call them), strip them, bead blast the frames and see what you've got and whether a lot of welding and proper post-welding annealing will fix it. But this is really only necessary if you want to do mainline excursions on the NEC. For low speed service at a museum it may not be needed.

Did any preserved GG1's get moved to present locations atop flat cars? Or did they (as I am presuming) get moved on their own wheels? If the latter then presumably the frames are adequate for low speed service like if IRM chose to make theirs run. (Yes, with trolley car electricals stuffed inside it can be made to run on 600VDC.)

Naturally we would all dream of an Amtrak-approved rebuilding that would let one run on the NEC. How much $$$$ can I put you down for?


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 Post subject: Re: GG1s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:21 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:52 pm
Posts: 909
My reply on PRR-FAX

Hi,

"I think the quill drive is part of the essence of the GG1."

This point of view has been discussed on other boards about items that make a D&RGW K28 a K28 or a NKP loco a NKP loco.

The basic conclusion was that the general public who are the ones to support the operation of a GG1 would not know the difference between a quill drive and a diesel-electric drive. The general public is unlearned about railroads and like short train rides.

How many locomotives were rebuilt with another manufacturer's engine and/or trucks? Externally it still looks like a GG1 even if internally it is not. Use the drive train and traction motors of a modern diesel (I've not kept up with the AC powered diesels so I can not give one as an example). Railroads often re-engined older locos by using non-factory built parts or even another manufacturer's engine and a new electrical system.

Use a motor-generator set to change the 11,000V AC 25Hz to 600VDC (or any other traction motor requirement).

Depending on the changes in the internals of the GG1, the section between the two cabs might become un-needed for electrical equipment. If so, it could be converted so that there is more cab room internally for the crew.

There are 12 other GG1s that still have the quill drive and if it could be worked out with the Strasburg RR, there two GG1s in the RR Museum of PA do still have the quill drive.

Just some thoughts.

Doug vV


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 Post subject: Re: GG1s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:08 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:43 am
Posts: 413
Location: Floyd, AR
If you hit the GG1 traction motors with a max of 600 volts DC, would that suffice for slow speed service? A 600 VDC solid state controller wouldn't be hard to hide and the overall modifications wouldn't have to be very extensive.

Yes, the 'AC' traction motors would work fine with DC.

Do any of the GG1 transformers remain? They CAN be refilled and used. I was at a utility yard working on the equipment that they use to drain and refill the large transformers used on a substation. These originally had been filled with PCB but had since been flushed and refilled with PCB free oils. If a 500,000 volt transformer can live without PCB's, I am pretty sure a GG1 transformer could as well.

_________________
Robert Longhofer,
Board Member, Cotton Belt Rail Historical Society, Arkansas Railroad Museum, steam engine SSW819.
Any information or opinions I express are my own, and are not the views of the CBRHS or anyone else, unless explicitly stated otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: GG1s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:53 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:34 pm
Posts: 155
The only GG1s in mind that have (had) their transformers were the two sitting in Cooperstown. The Henry Ford had the one from #4909 removed as part of what was supposed to be the first step of its restoration. We all know how that went. The other GG1 #4917 owned by the Florida group supposedly still has its transformer albeit filled with concrete. Good luck cleaning that out. Up to recently the RMPA's own #4800 still had its air-cooled transformer (cracked) until it was forcibly removed by the orders of the EPA. The EPA doesn't like GG1s period.


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 Post subject: Re: GG1s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:10 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8293
Location: Baltimore, MD
This topic was beaten to death eleven years ago, and it's in the FAQ:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30631


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 Post subject: Re: GG1s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:32 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:15 am
Posts: 456
One thing I am surprised no one has suggested in light of the retirement of the Amtrak AEM-7 `Toasters'. Since they ran the same territory as the old GG1s, since the transformers and other major components of the GG1s were removed because of the PCBs, gut the interior of a GG1, and transfer the guts of an AEM-7 into the GG1 body and now you would have an operable GG1 after you service the trucks.

I know it would take a dump truck of cash to fund it, but it would be more feasible as a restoration/upgrade, just like upgrading the prime mover to a modern one because good condition parts are near impossible to find. Since it is under the hood, few would notice the difference, but the sound and operation would still be the same.


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 Post subject: Re: GG1s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:39 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:25 pm
Posts: 1790
This topic was beaten to death eleven years ago, and it's in the FAQ.


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 Post subject: Re: GG1s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:11 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:52 pm
Posts: 909
Hi,

There are a few trolley-interurban museums operating today with the trolley wire at 600V DC.

If their track can hold a GG1, it could be operated at slow speed (say up to 30-35 MPH) with the pans rewired directly feeding the controls of the GG1 - no step down transformers needed and the quill drive would still be in use.

Slow speeds would also put less stress on the frames that have cracked.

FWIW

Doug vV


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 Post subject: Re: GG1s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:25 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 2423
wesp wrote:


Yes, it was. It's been discussed over and over, and the answer was always "It will never happen!"

You know, just like the restoration of a Big Boy. Impossible. Never happen. Stop asking!

Times change, as do technologies and interests. It's good to read the discussion on why it will (most likely) never happen, but it's also interesting to look at whether things have changed.

As for the internal changes, you're right, most tourists would never notice. A good example is the Red Buses at Glacier National Park and the Yellow Buses at Yellowstone. They've almost all been re-done, with new motors and drive trains. I think some of them are converted to LPG as well. I don't hear a lot of folks whining about how they've destroyed the historic fabric of the artifact. Apparently powerful engines and good brakes are considered useful in the Rocky Mountains.

It would, at least in theory, be possible to do a conversion of one of the rusting abandoned hulks into something different while still having many intact examples of the class. Will it be done? Probably not. But then again, who would have ever guessed that the Sugar Creek roundhouse was possible in this era?


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 Post subject: Re: GG1s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:53 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:07 am
Posts: 518
Cameron Wolk wrote:
The only GG1s in mind that have (had) their transformers were the two sitting in Cooperstown. The Henry Ford had the one from #4909 removed as part of what was supposed to be the first step of its restoration. We all know how that went. The other GG1 #4917 owned by the Florida group supposedly still has its transformer albeit filled with concrete. Good luck cleaning that out. Up to recently the RMPA's own #4800 still had its air-cooled transformer (cracked) until it was forcibly removed by the orders of the EPA. The EPA doesn't like GG1s period.


I think it's a bit of a stretch to say EPA doesn't like GG1's and I doubt few people that work there these days even know what they were.

It's the chemicals inside them that are dangerous --- and then some.

Bob H


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 Post subject: Re: GG1s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:06 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8293
Location: Baltimore, MD
crij wrote:
One thing I am surprised no one has suggested in light of the retirement of the Amtrak AEM-7 `Toasters'. Since they ran the same territory as the old GG1s, since the transformers and other major components of the GG1s were removed because of the PCBs, gut the interior of a GG1, and transfer the guts of an AEM-7 into the GG1 body and now you would have an operable GG1 after you service the trucks.

I know it would take a dump truck of cash to fund it, but it would be more feasible as a restoration/upgrade, just like upgrading the prime mover to a modern one because good condition parts are near impossible to find. Since it is under the hood, few would notice the difference, but the sound and operation would still be the same.


Here's the quick and dirty answer:

Anything is possible if you throw enough money at it--preferably a major corporation's money.

Amtrak and the FRA still hold all the cards in allowing a GG1 to run on the main. Without their explicit cooperation, it's a trolley museum or nothing--or build your own railroad. EVERY trolley museum I have seen has enough on its plate without toying with this proposal.

The guts of the AEM-7 that would be needed to even partially convert a GG1, assuming you somehow miraculously addressed the incredibly serious frame and motor issues, were somewhere in six figures in quantity when Amtrak was rebuilding the AEM7's to extend their lives--the one Amtrak worker told me "it costs more than your house", which I took to imply over $250K.

If you want to buy either one of the MARC AEM7's or SEPTA's lone one on speculation, be my guest. As I am to understand it, the Amtrak ones that aren't scrapped are held by the financing company for resale, and if you want to buy one of those, hey, go for it.

But until you have a commitment from a catenary-equipped railroad to allow it to operate, most of us have better things to support or speculate on.


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 Post subject: Re: GG1s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:02 pm 

Joined: Sat May 07, 2016 1:12 am
Posts: 46
For a gg1 to be a gg1 that would require at least most of the original drivetrain to be operational. In that regard a gg1 shell with modern components isn't a gg1. The question is how many gg1s still have a complete drivetrain?


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 Post subject: Re: GG1s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:45 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8293
Location: Baltimore, MD
If you regard the transformers and electrical system to be part of the "drivetrain"........

ZERO.


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