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 Post subject: MILW Early HEP?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:33 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:08 am
Posts: 29
Location: Severna Park, MD
Hi Everyone,

Researching photos of MILW F6 and F7 Hudsons, and I ran across this photo on steamlocomotive.com:

http://steamlocomotive.com/whyte/4-6-4/ ... -weber.jpg

Note, the large exhaust pipe running from what looks to be an equally large turbo generator on the pilot. Was this, in fact, a generator? ...and/or an early attempt at HEP?

Any ideas?

Thanks very much.

v/r,
Joe


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 Post subject: Re: MILW Early HEP?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:52 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:34 pm
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Nope, it just looks to be a power source for the main headlight and upper Mars light. Many steam locomotives have had this arrangement before without a large stack as shown. Drawing HEP from a steam locomotive though possible would be impractical for conventional use.


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 Post subject: Re: MILW Early HEP?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:02 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:10 pm
Posts: 951
It may have been the power source for train lighting. The Central Railroad of New Jersey had similar large turbo-generators mounted on the tenders of some of their 4-6-0 camelbacks to provide electric power to the coaches behind the tender.


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 Post subject: Re: MILW Early HEP?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:34 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:54 am
Posts: 794
Location: NJ
Look again! There is a standard sized turbo generator just ahead of the turret on the fireman's side Not only did CNJ and MILW use this early system for coach lighting but so did the Rock Island and the Boston and Maine, maybe others. Note that those generators were for coach lighting only, not for heat or air conditioning. The RI even had some bi-level commuter cars, pulled by steam, that had locomotive supplied lighting, but used steam for heat and air conditioning.


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 Post subject: Re: MILW Early HEP?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:08 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
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EDM wrote:
Look again! There is a standard sized turbo generator just ahead of the turret on the fireman's side Not only did CNJ and MILW use this early system for coach lighting but so did the Rock Island and the Boston and Maine, maybe others. Note that those generators were for coach lighting only, not for heat or air conditioning. The RI even had some bi-level commuter cars, pulled by steam, that had locomotive supplied lighting, but used steam for heat and air conditioning.


EDM -

The bi-level's on the RI were first purchased well into the diesel era. However, both the CB&Q and the C&NW had bi-levels that were actually pulled by steam power.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: MILW Early HEP?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:18 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 712
This locomotive is equipped with a Coffin feedwater heater, and it looks like the pipe comes from the steam chest or the heater itself, which is under the jacket.

The pipe is far too large in diameter to be anything related to the dynamo in front of the cab, and even if it was so related, why would it be necessary to pipe the exhaust all the way to the front and use such large diameter pipe for that purpose?


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 Post subject: Re: MILW Early HEP?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:57 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:17 pm
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Certainly looks like a large turbo generator.

Would the fireman notice something like this running on a big hudson like this? What about steam heat? would he notice the extra steam demand?

I've heard from a guy who fired Sou 722 with steam heat turned on that it was like a safety valve constantly open.... wow!


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 Post subject: Re: MILW Early HEP?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:30 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:05 pm
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Turbo generator. From the size it looks to be probably 15-20kW, so perfect for lighting your 6-10 car commuter train. The exhaust pipe is mighty ugly, but there were regs about not having steam obstructing the engineer's view and it's the shortest/cheapest answer to solve that problem. I'm more interested in what the small box under the headlight platform is.

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 Post subject: Re: MILW Early HEP?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:00 pm 
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Location: Orrville, OH
Definitely a big turbo. It looks like the supply line comes from the valve halfway between the stack and the sand dome, runs down by the first step down from the running board and loops around to the front. The large exhaust pipe exits from the back. Though not very elegant in its construction, its large diameter could reduce back pressure and with the short radius elbows may also reduce the noise a bit. I've heard some loud standard turbos and something that big could possibly shriek with a short, straight exhaust pipe.

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 Post subject: Re: MILW Early HEP?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:31 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:31 am
Posts: 99
Location: Northern Illinois
Not as a mechanical opinion, but from an operations standpoint: by the time that F-6 photo was taken (1952), those engines had been assigned to Chicago Suburban territory and would need some way to provide electricity for car lighting. Other MILW F-6 photos from the same website show the engines in suburban service, with the same device on the pilot.

In their previous mainline service Chicago-Milwaukee-Minneapolis-Harlowton, the extra generating capacity would not have been needed. This might help explain the clunky appearance of the installation, which had to be fitted in somehow when diesels took over the through passenger trains and the Hudsons were bumped to suburban service.


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 Post subject: Re: MILW Early HEP?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:27 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:54 am
Posts: 794
Location: NJ
Les-

Thanks for the correction. I'm not from Chicago or the Midwest, but knew it was ONE of the Chicago commuter lines that pulled bilevels with steam.

EDM


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 Post subject: Re: MILW Early HEP?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:19 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:08 am
Posts: 29
Location: Severna Park, MD
Thanks everyone for the insight.

Here are the other pictures that Peter referenced above:

http://steamlocomotive.com/whyte/4-6-4/ ... -weber.jpg
http://steamlocomotive.com/whyte/4-6-4/ ... weber2.jpg
http://steamlocomotive.com/whyte/4-6-4/ ... -weber.jpg

The middle link above shows a "right hand" installation, with what looks like an accompanying larger control box.

And yes, yikes, these installs look functional above anything else. I'm very interested in other details. Considering the date, these would be 32 VDC generators, I assume?

Thanks again,
Joe


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 Post subject: Re: MILW Early HEP?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:03 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:34 pm
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Location: Union, IL
EDM wrote:
Not only did CNJ and MILW use this early system for coach lighting but so did the Rock Island and the Boston and Maine, maybe others.

CRI&P Pacific 938 at IRM had a large generator like this installed, albeit atop the boiler. There's a photo and some information at http://www.irm.org/railwire/rw154.html.

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 Post subject: Re: MILW Early HEP?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:57 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:31 am
Posts: 99
Location: Northern Illinois
joecomer wrote:
. . . what looks like an accompanying larger control box.


Not sure which box you're referring to, but the large box on the right side of the boiler between the steam and sand domes is likely for the Automatic Train Control (cab signal) system then in use between Mayfair Tower (Chicago) and Hastings, MN.


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 Post subject: Re: MILW Early HEP?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:48 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:08 am
Posts: 29
Location: Severna Park, MD
I was thinking the square-ish box on the pilot, next to the generator itself, looked larger in the right-hand application.

I'm still wondering if it was 32-36ish volts... presume it was, since, if I recall correctly, all lighting in the late steam era was around voltage?


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