It is currently Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:48 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Transporting dirt, coal, gravel, etc prior to gons
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:49 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:52 pm
Posts: 909
Hi,

The was a discussion I saw somewhere about how these items were transported before gondolas were "invented". Basically it was from the beginning in 1828-about 1854.

I found this photo from the civil war in "The Story of the Northern Central Railway" by Gunnarsson on page 63. Although taken during the Civil War, it demonstrates how flats were loaded with loose commodities.

FWIW

Doug vV

Attachment:
USMRR.JPG
USMRR.JPG [ 151.17 KiB | Viewed 1392 times ]


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transporting dirt, coal, gravel, etc prior to gons
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:11 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2091
Location: Northern Illinois
The photo is misleading, in that they aren't "transporting" the material in common carriage. They likely won't take it any further than the embankment visible just ahead of the locomotive, where they will shovel it off again to widen the fill. The flatcars have stake pockets, so at least temporary side boards to convert them into gondolas are a possibility. Why they aren't using them is it is hard to shovel from the ground over the sides of a gon, and then the gon takes longer to unload. For a short distance, they get better labor utilization by just shuttling back and forth with flatcars.

_________________
Dennis Storzek


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transporting dirt, coal, gravel, etc prior to gons
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:10 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:34 pm
Posts: 1885
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Yes, and the Baltimore and Ohio from the beginning used various cars with big barrel shapes for coal.

_________________
Steven Harrod
Lektor
Danmarks Tekniske Universitet
Institut for Systemer, Produktion, og Ledelse


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transporting dirt, coal, gravel, etc prior to gons
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:49 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3032
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Actually, I think gondolas or some variant have been around since the very beginning of railroads. They arguably predate steam locomotives; recall how the earliest railroads were coal haulers, even plateway lines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gondola_(rail)#/media/File:Wooden_coal_truck_-_geograph.org.uk_-_685590.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gondola_(rail)

The images don't come through for me, but there are references on these pages to coal jimmies going back to at least 1827--the same year the B&O was chartered. And eight wheel cars were in use in the early 1840s on the D&H's inclined planes.

https://books.google.com/books?id=2fh0H ... es&f=false

A modelling site, but check out the old photos.

http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topi ... hichpage=3


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transporting dirt, coal, gravel, etc prior to gons
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:56 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:52 pm
Posts: 909
Hi,

In the thread about gons I can not seem to find, It was said that the gondola (as we know it) did not come into being until about 1854.

Maybe it was a misunderstanding on my part of what the post said. Unfortunately, I can not find where the post was and can not go back to it and clarify my memory.

Thanks.

Doug vV


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transporting dirt, coal, gravel, etc prior to gons
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:33 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:40 pm
Posts: 125
Location: San Francisco, CA
Although I can't prove it, I expect that flat cars with sides built up from stake pockets have been around a very long time. Gondolas are an easy next step.

The Southern Pacific Narrow Gauge book by Robert Bader lists flat cars and gondolas in the same roster; most likely they were interchangeable.

The WW&F Railway Museum is building their right of way with two flat cars using temporary side boards held to stake pockets. They have moved heaps of gravel and ballast this way.

Ted Miles, WW&F Member


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transporting dirt, coal, gravel, etc prior to gons
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:53 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:32 pm
Posts: 241
Actually the gondola car may be the first railroad car. Although the word gondola used to describe a rail car did not come until the early 1800’s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gondola_(rail)

The following link is of interest. About early wagon-ways and railroads such as the Willington Waggonway built in the 1760s to transport coal by horse via wooden rail.
http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/26300

Lots of cars looking like gondolas to haul coal and other bulk items.
Page also shows wagons on Stephenson’s first railroad, making gondolas at least as old as the 4’8" gauge, 1801.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transporting dirt, coal, gravel, etc prior to gons
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:58 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:32 pm
Posts: 241
For some reason the Wiki ling for gondola won't work.
How about
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_railway_vehicles
and click on bulk freight, gondola (Rail) (US)


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transporting dirt, coal, gravel, etc prior to gons
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:12 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 6:10 pm
Posts: 119
the most unusual thing i've seen is a picture of a steam shovel loading dirt into the side doors of boxcars. I think it was on the NP, the picture was from American Hoist.
Mike N.

_________________
M. Nix


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transporting dirt, coal, gravel, etc prior to gons
PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:02 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2091
Location: Northern Illinois
Are you sure it wasn't coal? Lots of coal was shipped in boxcars in the upper Midwest at one time; the original coal sheds in the rural areas were set up for receiving boxcars.

Any coal mined on the NP (as opposed to being loaded in the Twin Ports) would be lignite. Lignite is closer to peat than to coal, and deteriorates in the weather, so closed cars were preferred.

_________________
Dennis Storzek


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transporting dirt, coal, gravel, etc prior to gons
PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:59 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:29 pm
Posts: 318
Somewhere I read that flatcars were the preferred way to haul dirt when constructing the panama canal. The sticky clay soil would stick in the dump cars making them hard to unload. But they could pile the dirt on the flats and then just push it off with less trouble and quicker. I have seen photos of both methods in use.

T7


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transporting dirt, coal, gravel, etc prior to gons
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:43 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
Posts: 1483
Location: Southern California
General Haupt was the man in charge of the U.S. Army railroad (reconstruction and operation) activity during the Civil War.

_________________
Brian Norden


Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


 Who is online

Users browsing this forum: bbunge, Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 48 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: