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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:29 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3033
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Just another letter to the editor on the railroad, this from a rail supporter.

I do think he has some important questions.

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.co ... anti-rail/


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:35 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3033
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
And another development, maybe.

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.co ... il-appeal/


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:15 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2080
instead of looking for a better plan, they want to try to reverse the order.
Your going the wrong way and wasting time. and money. And when they have a plan ready, deliver it via the Lake Placid train.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:41 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:52 pm
Posts: 135
Location: Greenwich, NY
J3a-614 wrote:
Just another letter to the editor on the railroad, this from a rail supporter.

I do think he has some important questions.

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.co ... anti-rail/


And wouldn't you know that none of the ARTA people answered *any* of the questions I posed. Big surprise, huh?

If these last two weeks have shown us anything, it's that--as I accused--they are purely anti-rail and getting a trail would be nothing more than an afterthought.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:50 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:15 am
Posts: 459
I wonder... They keep toughing those support numbers from polls taken near the start of the push, I wonder what the numbers would be like if a new poll was taken in the effected communities now that there have been a few years of exposure????

Some reason I don't think they would have as much support.
Rich C.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:28 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3033
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
A pro-rail letter at the Enterprise, posted because it's entertaining for--well, let's say this is one woman who is beautiful because she's angry--at the trail crowd!!

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.co ... il-ruling/


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:53 pm 
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Posts: 249
Perhaps its already been tried, or maybe its impractical, or outside of the area of interest/mission statement, etc., but are there any rail supporters who also like trails?

I understand that there's already been a "rails with trail" proposal, but if there was to be a new group/offshoot group (maybe sharing some common volunteers or administration with the railroad) whose main focus was to develop a multi-use trail/ maintenance access road that parallels the railroad, and then they got after it and built it in a very short time (just as the Railroad volunteers have done so much in the past few years) then the ARTA folks wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

Once the bike and snowmobile crowd see the new trail appearing before their eyes, I would think they'd quickly lose interest in the ARTA organization.

I hope someone is collecting all of this information, orignal articles, and social media comments by people on both sides so an educational and informative book can be published on this debate.

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"The guy with the green hat"


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:26 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3033
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
A new commentary that, in my opinion, elegantly summarizes the situation in the legal case.

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.co ... d-history/


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:32 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 459
J3a-614 wrote:
A new commentary that, in my opinion, elegantly summarizes the situation in the legal case.
http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.co ... d-history/

Larry Roth is an excellent writer and factually corrrect, but I believe his tone is making things worse.

Mr. Roth lives in Ravena, so he is not a resident of the Adirondacks -- being an outsider telling locals what they should be doing is never a winning strategy! The only thing Mr. Roth is accomplishing by repeatedly bashing trail proponents about how wrong they are is making it harder to build the consensus needed to have both rail and trail in the corridor.

IMHO, rail and trail proponents are all so focused on winning the "battle" against each other that they have already lost the "war" -- the "war" is getting their fair share of funding and other resources from the NY state government.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:04 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3033
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Chris Webster wrote:
J3a-614 wrote:
A new commentary that, in my opinion, elegantly summarizes the situation in the legal case.
http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.co ... d-history/

Larry Roth is an excellent writer and factually corrrect, but I believe his tone is making things worse.

Mr. Roth lives in Ravena, so he is not a resident of the Adirondacks -- being an outsider telling locals what they should be doing is never a winning strategy! The only thing Mr. Roth is accomplishing by repeatedly bashing trail proponents about how wrong they are is making it harder to build the consensus needed to have both rail and trail in the corridor.

IMHO, rail and trail proponents are all so focused on winning the "battle" against each other that they have already lost the "war" -- the "war" is getting their fair share of funding and other resources from the NY state government.


Hrrumph!! And what are the rest of us supposed to do? Shut up and twiddle our thumbs?

That plays directly into the hands of the trail only, or perhaps more appropriately it seems, the anti-rail crowd. That bunch has raised the idea that "outsiders" should shut up--but when we "outsiders" tried to explain the problems with things like property ownership and easements, we were brushed off. Not that it made any difference--the same bunch brushed off the local people and groups who were pro-rail was well.

The legal fight, in any event, was fought and won by New Yorkers, including railroad people living in the Adirondacks.

The trail group also welcomes help from outside; they have a guy who regularly posts from Canada, I think someone else is from the Catskills, and one guy, who lived there are very long time and I believe is still on the ARTA board of directors, moved to Vermont in the past year.

Should those people weigh in? Should that one fellow still be on the board, since he's no longer in the area?

I have no objections to the ARTA having outside commentary. Both of the visions--those of us for rails and those who would chase the railroaders away--ultimately need "outsiders" to come and spend money to support either vision or either enterprise. And if the outsiders have something constructive to say, why stop them? Who has a monopoly on brains?

But the ARTA tells us to butt out, often claiming we "outsiders" don't know anything--when their own goading of the agencies of the State of New York lead to what has to be an embarrassing rebuke by the justice division.

What does all this tell us about the ARTA?


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:21 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 896
Just as a note: the IRS form for reporting organizations that abuse their 501(c)(3) status, in ways that I think are easily demonstrated to IRS CI, is here:

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f13909.pdf

Whether or not you're a local in the Tri-Lakes region, you have both the right and the moral obligation to file one of these reports on ARTA. I would argue that it is not unjust to consider whether ARTA principals have committed some form of tax fraud, including use of tax-exempt funds for political influence (which, I think, clearly qualifies under 'organization is involved in a political campaign' although I'm sure the usual suspects would bluster to deny it).

I encourage anyone who has Facebook access to post this specific link in the appropriate threads we have been referencing.

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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:02 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3033
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Another development, though it may be disputed if it's anything to pay attention to, given that the Attorney General is the only entity with legal "standing" to file the appeal:

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.co ... ome-trail/


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:08 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 331
J3a-614 wrote:
Another development, though it may be disputed if it's anything to pay attention to, given that the Attorney General is the only entity with legal "standing" to file the appeal:

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.co ... ome-trail/


The question is,” Randall continued, “what is the future of it if it sits there in its present state? It’s useless to anyone, I doubt that the rails are even in any condition now that they can bring a train back over it. But what really troubles me above everything else is they’ve had access to that corridor and those rails for how many years and there has been talk about bringing enhanced activity to the area, and that has simply never materialized. It seems like it’s time to move on.”

For me, this really is the upshot of the story: if you are leasing track from a government entity, keep the tracks maintained and passable, and run equipment down it periodically (even isolated sections between OOS bridges), no matter what. Even if it means only putting in one or two ties per mile per year and cutting weeds on track you don't use, keep up the track or you are going to have statements like this one from people who don't know what they are talking about but seems like common sense to others who don't know what they are talking about. In all of these cases (others I won't smear here but I'm sure everyone knows who) long stretches of track were allowed to grow weeds and trees while decades passed waiting for funds from the government owners for bridges and other expensive repairs that will never come. Common statements you hear like "it's just sitting there rusting" sound idiotic to us but not to everyone.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:59 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3033
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Quote:
For me, this really is the upshot of the story: if you are leasing track from a government entity, keep the tracks maintained and passable, and run equipment down it periodically (even isolated sections between OOS bridges), no matter what. Even if it means only putting in one or two ties per mile per year and cutting weeds on track you don't use, keep up the track or you are going to have statements like this one from people who don't know what they are talking about but seems like common sense to others who don't know what they are talking about. In all of these cases (others I won't smear here but I'm sure everyone knows who) long stretches of track were allowed to grow weeds and trees while decades passed waiting for funds from the government owners for bridges and other expensive repairs that will never come. Common statements you hear like "it's just sitting there rusting" sound idiotic to us but not to everyone.


This is exactly what the Adirondack Scenic has been doing for years.

The tracks have been maintained as passable. Equipment had been operated over the whole line.

Now not all of the line is serviceable. Before this whole thing blew up, the railroad had been operating on two segments, one of about 50 or so miles from Utica to Thendara, and the other, about six miles, south out of Lake Placid. There was and remains a gap of some 60 miles in the center. This is exempted track--and while it's not practical or permissible to run trains over it with passengers, it has seen regular movements of maintenance equipment, and also revenue equipment being ferried between Lake Placid and the maintenance facility in Utica.

If there is one thing I've seen over the years--and I bet a lot of people here have seen it, too--you can do a thousand things the way they should be for a century, and people still won't know what you're doing and why.

For just one example, think of standard and required use horns or whistles at grade crossings and the complaints you get about the noise!!


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:31 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:45 pm
Posts: 106
You are correct, the track has been operated several times a year from end to end for railroad operations, but the center of the line is not maintained for occupied passenger trains.

I do want to correct one thing. There is no such thing as exempt track, it is excepted track. Somehow the term exempt track has come into use by some people, although excepted track is the legal term found in 49 CFR Part 213. Exempt applies to grade crossings where buses and haz-mats aren't required to stop, and in a few other places, but not when discussing railroad track.

Bart


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