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 Post subject: ASTM F-24 Amusement Park Railroad Standards
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:32 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 4:56 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Mound House, NV
Hi all,
If you are interested in purchasing a copy of the AP RR Standards, the least expensive way is to become a member of ASTM.
It is only US$75.00/yr. and you get 1 volume of standards included with your membership.
Volume 15.07 "End Use Products" includes the AP RR standards.
This volume also includes all the Amusement Ride Standards and a bunch more.
There are currently 2 standards out there for Amusement Park Railroads:
The track Std F2960-15 and an operations standard F3054-15
The AP RR operations standard also incorporates the current amusement ride operations standard F770. (Meet all the requirements in F770 plus additional listed items directly related to AP railroads.)

All ASTM standards are available for download as a PDF.
(note: ASTM is discontinuing the production of a volume on CD soon - 2018 I think)

On a side note there are several task groups working on different subjects including a AP steam loco maintenance and inspection std.

C W


C W Craven
Sub Committee Chairman,
F24:60 Special Rides and Attractions Sub Committee.


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 Post subject: Re: ASTM F-24 Amusement Park Railroad Standards
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:03 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1446
Location: Youngstown, OH
Does anyone know if there has been any activity lately with the proposed regulations for steam locomotives at Amusement Parks?

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Rick Rowlands
J&L Narrow Gauge Railroad
"The shortest and narrowest Railroad in Ohio"


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 Post subject: Re: ASTM F-24 Amusement Park Railroad Standards
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:20 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:48 pm
Posts: 117
According to this it is still in the development stage https://www.astm.org/DATABASE.CART/WORK ... K67138.htm


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 Post subject: Re: ASTM F-24 Amusement Park Railroad Standards
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:12 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 376
Location: Philadelphia, PA
More things that make you say "Hmmm."

The ASTM states "any gauge of steam locomotives." Logically, FRA standards would supersede where applicable. But I'm not thinking of logic; I'm thinking of lawyers, courts and insurance companies.

Has ASTM addressed the existence of US Federal regulations on the same subject?

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: ASTM F-24 Amusement Park Railroad Standards
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:26 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:32 pm
Posts: 40
The ASTM team met yesterday, Thursday, March 26, 2020. Meetings are generally held via phone conference. The next formal meeting of the group which will be held in person is scheduled for October 2020.

There is another phone meeting scheduled for next week. I do participate as a member of the group and have for a few years now. Linn M. has done the bulk of the work on the new programs and they do reflect changes that have been made in the 49th Title of the Code of Federal Regulations and all of the changes made in ASME and NBIC over the past many years. Yes, all of our national standards have been reviewed and included/applied where applicable.

I would be happy to address specific questions if any of you have them. The group does want us to share info with the industry and get feed back. If any of you have concerns or questions, please let me know. I will do the best I can to help you or to address concerns or pass concerns up the chain.

Kindly,

JohnE.

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Wasatch Railroad Contractors
Cheyenne, Wyoming


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 Post subject: Re: ASTM F-24 Amusement Park Railroad Standards
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:38 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:32 pm
Posts: 40
EJ Berry,

49 CFR Part 230 (and other sections) are very specific about the boundaries of applicability and jurisdiction of that law. Because the law specifically states what is applicable (and therefore what is NOT applicable) there are a lot of places (amusement parks specifically, regardless of size) that have no applicable regulation or standard. The States (Jurisdictions) have commented for many years that there is no "applicable standard", which is true. FRA does not have the authority to exercise jurisdiction and has said that they do NOT intend to start to enforce jurisdiction on amusement parks.

The parks (primarily Disney) got to together and started to compile a standard. Most parks are governed by some sort of ASTM standard and so, it makes the most sense to put the "railroad" code for parks in the ASTM. The group (run by Disney) enlisted many railroad industry specialists and companies to help with the standard. Linn M, who was so influential in the creation of the new 49 CFR Part 230 and the ASME and NBIC sections has spent a ton of time helping ASTM with the new standard.

The standard will most likely be enforced by the jurisdiction, which in the US is the States. It gives state "ride inspectors" a standard to base inspections on. It also gives the jurisdictions ways to "apply" the standard.

In yesterday's meeting, the discussion was centered on the fact that this code is hard because so many operations do things a specific way. The new code allows for parks to have "their own way" as long as they can prove that "their way" is a safe way. However, the jurisdiction has the "final" say in determining if the "park way" is the safe way, based on the guidance of the new code.

I hope this helps...I'll watch and respond to other questions.

Kindly,

JohnE.

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Wasatch Railroad Contractors
Cheyenne, Wyoming


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 Post subject: Re: ASTM F-24 Amusement Park Railroad Standards
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:38 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 4:56 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Mound House, NV
Hello All,
A little more of an update to the amusement park railroad standards.
In addition to the steam locomotive maintenance and inspection standard that a task group is working on, there are 3 other task groups working on a standards for amusement park railways. Rolling Stock (new task group), Track - existing standard maintenance and review, and Operations - existing standard maintenance and review.

The proposed steam loco std was sent out to ballot to members of the Sub Committee, comments were received and are in the review process. (BTW the ballot did not pass, pretty standard for the first ballot)

I would like to acknowledge the following folks that have put an enormous amount of time and effort into the proposed amusement park steam locomotive standard:
Ron Lwin and James Wolfe,(Disney), Linn Modinger (Strasburg-ret), Sean Bautista (Hillcrest), Tim Smith (Dollywood), Matt Earnest and Jessie Hoyle (Tweetsie), and Joel Fritschie (Disney-ret). There are many others that are also actively participating.

The rolling stock task group has had a couple of meetings, they are in the early stages of developing a standard.

All 4 task groups generally meet in person at least twice a year at the ASTM F-24 committee meetings. Additionally active groups are meeting via conference call etc regularly. The time, type, and method is up to each task group chair.

You do not need to be a ASTM member to attend and participate, meetings are open to all. (You must be a ASTM member to vote).

With that said I extend an invitation to participate to all of you. Please PM me with your contact info and interest and I will forward it to the appropriate task group chair(s).

Finally just a note on standards development, As things progress, they are discussed, sometimes discussed again, then put on paper, and at some point sent out for ballot.
Invariably a few comments are received, these comments are reviewed by the task group and then some changes may be made and re balloted. It's kinda like the instructions you used to find on bottles of shampoo, "Apply-lather-rinse-repeat".

Feel free to reach out to me anytime

C W

C W Craven
Sub-Committee Chairman
F24:60 Special Rides and Attractions
(annoying the amusement ride industry and western railway preservation efforts for more the 25 years)


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 Post subject: Re: ASTM F-24 Amusement Park Railroad Standards
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:16 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:04 pm
Posts: 191
I was formally a mechanic in two amusement parks and I can't recall reading any Federal or State regulations on anything. We had to do our daily inspections to make sure everything was safe, which is standard policy, but other than that it was up to our discretion to replace worn or defective parts. Each park I worked at both had trains (non steam) and never had any issues with them other than wheel replacement, which was often, as the wheels were not hardened and wore out quickly.

Many of the rides were made overseas and getting replacement parts was difficult. I remember calling one of the manufacturers for a large gear and he told me "when I get a order of 13 I will make them again". Well that took over 5 years before he got 13 orders and people kept asking why that ride was down for so long. The wood roller coasters were probably the most labor intensive out of anything we owned.

I know Lakeside Amusement park in Denver recently overhauled one of it's steam locomotives and it will be operational this year. That should be exciting as I have never seen steam at Lakeside.


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 Post subject: Re: ASTM F-24 Amusement Park Railroad Standards
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:46 am 

Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:36 am
Posts: 370
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
To those in the know - Is there anything that would incorporate hobby gauges (typically 7-1/2" or smaller, with a few as big as 16" gauge) into the proposals? In the past some entities have tried to define/regulate the smaller gauges as being equivalent to amusement parks if they give rides to the public.


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 Post subject: Re: ASTM F-24 Amusement Park Railroad Standards
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:17 am 

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:48 pm
Posts: 117
The standards apply to anything that uses 12" gauge track and larger, so most of the live steam hobby is not included. The gray area comes if the club charges for rides rather than ask for donations.


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 Post subject: Re: ASTM F-24 Amusement Park Railroad Standards
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:11 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:32 pm
Posts: 40
Based on the jurisdictional requirements (what your State has in the books related to laws) there can actually be a lot of "grey area." The grey area can include; sold tickets, public property, status of the organization, length of ride, number of people riding, private property, crossings over public right or ways.... in effect, each club/organization will have to cross these bridges with the "powers that be."

There is a provision in the rule that "Could" make the rule...or portions there-of applicable to smaller scales (7.5 for example) The provision...basically states that where the operation may not fall fully under the rules....the jurisdiction can ask the organization to produce a standard by which they can be judged.

Here is a simple example: Say you have a 7.5 inch operation, on a public land and you operate on weekends only for donations. The State may ask you to review the rules and apply what is applicable. If you "really" fall outside of the rules, the State may ask you to produce a "standard" by which you inspect, maintain and operate. It would be from this standard that the state would base inspections and so on.

The idea or premise that....."this size is not included" may be true by specific size, but it does not prevent the state from asking for some type of standard or program to support the safe operation of the railroad.

Now.....none of you run out and shut the (your) park(s) down. I (for one) have helped a few parks write their own "standard" and the process is not too hard. This is not an effort to "shut" people down, it is an effort to create a standard reference to be used in judging safety and applicability.

If you sense that you are a target or that you are being picked on....please reach out to one of us! Like I said, I am more than willing to help and discuss the items and help you out. Just know....please do not assume that because your operation was not called out by name or size...that you are Scott Free....you are not. You will have to do "something".

Hope this helps....

JohnE.

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Wasatch Railroad Contractors
Cheyenne, Wyoming


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 Post subject: Re: ASTM F-24 Amusement Park Railroad Standards
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:19 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:48 pm
Posts: 117
Quite true, the club that I am affiliated with (but not currently active) has fitted whole train braking and safety chains on the equipment used to give rides to the public. I am not quite sure who recommended this. They do operate in a city park, since the mid 1970's.


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 Post subject: Re: ASTM F-24 Amusement Park Railroad Standards
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:13 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 4:56 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Mound House, NV
Thanks John.


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 Post subject: Re: ASTM F-24 Amusement Park Railroad Standards
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:04 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:36 am
Posts: 370
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Thanks for the responses on ''live steam" operations.


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