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 Post subject: Preserved Wagner Palace Car Company cars.
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 12:21 am 
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Location: Henderson Nevada
At the Nevada State Railroad Museum in Boulder City we have a 1888 Wagner Palace car, Ellsmere, built for the Vanderbilt family, specifically used by Dr Webb, a son in law who ran Wagner after Wagner’s death. We are in the early stages of preparing a preservation/rehabilitation study.

The car is complete, but highly evolved. The interior is largely intact. Included are two pull down upper births and one sofa who’s back pivots upward to make an upper birth. Many of the drawers and some seat cushions have wonderful cursive stencils with the car’s name, apparently dating back to its construction. We have moved it on its own wheels around the museum, and are evaluating it for occasional operation (legally it needs some brake work… but not much... ) Here near Las Vegas we will need to think about its air conditioning if using it or even displaying it in summer (does anyone have pointers or stories about using ice air conditioning… )

We believe that it may be the second Ellsmere… and there was a later Ellsmere, reportedly used on a 1930’s record setting high speed on the 20th Century. Of course these other cars pollute and confuse the historic record.

The chronology shows that the car was sold about 1914 to unknown parties… it disappears from the New York Central listings about that date, then reappears as Texas and Pacific 500 in 1920, later numbered 5 on the same railroad. It left railroad service in the late 1950’s and was first displayed at a Fort Worth Museum, then at the Pate Auto Museum also in Texas. When that museum closed a Las Vegas collector purchased their collections, including the car. He initially planned to use the car as a cabin, but instead chose to donate the car to our museum.

At our museum, we are interpreting it as a private car, the precursor of a private jet… a lifestyle well known in southern Nevada. Ellsmere was a significant car, apparently exhibited at the Chicago Columbia Exposition.

As part of the report, we are looking for other Wagner cars which might be extant or preserved. We are aware of two, one “in the wild” in Ohio, a discussion of which has appeared in a thread on this board at viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12975

The other, strangely also associated with Dr Webb, the Grand Isle, at the Shelburne Museum https://shelburnemuseum.org/

Randy


Attachments:
Dining room today.jpg
Dining room today.jpg [ 1.17 MiB | Viewed 2445 times ]
1893-1 Ellsmere and Grassmere - Jan 1893 Vol 3 Railroad Car Journal - Stanford.jpg
1893-1 Ellsmere and Grassmere - Jan 1893 Vol 3 Railroad Car Journal - Stanford.jpg [ 860.9 KiB | Viewed 2445 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Preserved Wagner Palace Car Company cars.
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 11:37 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:54 am
Posts: 789
Location: Califoothills / Midwest Prairies
I searched the threads on RYPN to see these observations:

at the Railroad Museum of New England, Rutland combine 260 was built as a coach by Wagner in 1891

In Cheyenne, Mike Pannel was interested in the body of Wagner sleeping car 'Omaha' from 1866. It was hoped to be preserved (I don't know if this has happened or not).
It may have been a private or business car or regular sleeper, built as a 10 section drawing room and sleeping car.

In Pueblo, CF&I Mine Rescue Car #1 displayed at the Bessemer Museum on the west side if I-25 is a former Wagner car.

In Alberta, in 2003, a decrepit Wagner car was observed, possibly ex-W&LE parlor-observation, was rotting away on a farm

At Heritage Park in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, former Canadian National hayrack car with a roof and enclosed center portion, which was rebuilt by CN from a former Canadian Government Railways sleeper, is in use on the park railway and is thought to be originally built by Wagner.

There was a Wagner find in Florida in 2001. I don't know what became of this story:
Quote:
It appears that a Wagner Palace Car exists in Tampa. The car is apparently named "Ranger" and, if its the "Ranger" built by Wagner as the "Sappho" in 1892, it's an extremely rare "find".

According to "A Century of Pullman Cars Vol II - The Palace Cars" (a photo is on page 372) by Ralph Barger, this car was changed to PV status by Pullman in 1903. It had 5 "Private Rooms"(compartments?) a very large observation lounge, and a kitchen with crew space in the front. There was a dining table in the observation lounge when the car was built.
During WWI it was leased to the US Govt and it was sold to a Chicago dealer in 1921. No history exists after that.

The car evidently ended up on the Royal American Shows train, used by the show's owner. When RAS got another PV in the 1940's, this car was given to an employee who moved it off the rails and converted it into a home in Tampa. It was lifted off its trucks and set on blocks.

Over the years, it received a roof over the original car roof and stucco over the sides, which were scribed metal over wood. Also, a door was cut into one side of the car but that was covered by a shed.

About 2/3 of the interior is original with elaborate woodwork, some of it inlaid. Two oval stained glass windows remain in the sides. The hallway and walls have much of the original woodwaork intact, Inside, it's incrediably well preserved. I found the name "Ranger" painted on a piece of woodwork from the back door of the car.

The car has been offered to Tampa Union Station for preservation. The question is, can anyone on this list offer serious suggestions on funding sources for a project like this? I'm sure this would be a very costly project but the results would be outstanding.

http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2275


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 Post subject: Re: Preserved Wagner Palace Car Company cars.
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 10:16 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:12 am
Posts: 654
Location: cheyenne
Re the 1866 'Omaha' we are still keeping a close eye on her and the owners are well aware of its importance and our interest, all in good time as they say. We believe this is 'Omaha' in the attached photograph in Boulder in C&S days
.
Mike Pannell


Attachments:
C&S 84, 85 or 87, Boulder, c. 1902  -- Boulder Public Library Carnegie Branch Call No. 210-7-41photo_1.jpg
C&S 84, 85 or 87, Boulder, c. 1902 -- Boulder Public Library Carnegie Branch Call No. 210-7-41photo_1.jpg [ 102.73 KiB | Viewed 1926 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Preserved Wagner Palace Car Company cars.
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 10:43 am 

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:08 am
Posts: 13
"In Alberta, in 2003, a decrepit Wagner car was observed, possibly ex-W&LE parlor-observation, was rotting away on a farm."

This car is former Wheeling & Lake Erie un-named parlor car #016, constructed by Jackson & Sharp in 1904 and is not a Wagner car. It was purchased from successor Nickel Plate Road, and became part of the Arthur LaSalle collection in Hilliard, Florida, where the car was given the name PROTEUS. The history of #016 is detailed in my book, The Wheeling & Lake Erie Railway, Volume 2.

John B. Corns


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 Post subject: Re: Preserved Wagner Palace Car Company cars.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:22 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:54 pm
Posts: 19
https://www.facebook.com/colebrookdaler ... 1967617961 It would appear the Colebrookdale has started taking the woodwork out of the car body in Ohio, deeming it beyond saving. I doubt the remains will be around much longer after this.


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 Post subject: Re: Preserved Wagner Palace Car Company cars.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:12 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:34 pm
Posts: 632
Location: Union, IL
ColebrookdaleRailfan wrote:
I doubt the remains will be around much longer after this.

Anyone know whether the Barney & Smith-built Lake Shore Electric interurban car body located on that same farm in Ohio is being disposed of as well?

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Preserved North American Electric Railway Equipment News
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 Post subject: Re: Preserved Wagner Palace Car Company cars.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:50 am 
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Posts: 1677
Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Private car Ellsmere (2nd) was built by Wagner, completed as of 11/28/1888, in Lot #16, and later had Pullman Plan #3088 assigned. It may have been #289, and was renamed in 1900 to Pilgrim (2nd). It was sold in December 1901 to Ringling Brothers.

The later all-steel heavyweight car was named Elsmere (note difference in spelling), and was a 16 section sleeper built by Pullman, completed as of 2/16/1918, in Lot #4531, to Plan #2412F. It was modified to a tourist sleeper as of 7/7/1937, as #4263, to Plan #2412U. It was scrapped by Pullman as of 11/20/1946.

There was also a Fellsmere (or possibly spelled Fellesmere), a baggage-20 seat parlor built by Pullman, completed as of 8/27/1913, in Lot #4196, to Plan #2765 (changed to #2765A as of 12/9/1913), which became storage & porter (S&P) car #S-23 as of 2/20/1943. Spelled Fellsmere by Barger, Kratville, and Madden, and Fellesmere by Wayner.

I don't know which car was used on the record-setting run of the 20th Century Limited, but it would make more sense that it would be the sleeper Elsmere, not the parlor Fellsmere.

10 section sleeper-observation Omaha was built in 1866. Although listed in the Wagner section of Barger's "A Century of Pullman Cars, Volume 2", its builder is listed as unknown. Whatever the builder, it was part of the Wagner fleet at the time of the Pullman takeover, and was therefore assigned Plan #3003. It is listed as being renamed to Lingayen in June 1901, and as being scrapped in March 1902. If the surviving car is indeed the Omaha/Lingayen, then I wonder what the car's history is post-1902?

There was also a 14 section sleeper-saloon-(observation?) named Omaha built the same year (1866), either built by the C&NW and G.M. Pullman at Galena, or built by the CB&Q, depending on where in Barger's "Volume 2" you look, listed as Plan #20, and as being sold to the C&NW in August 1882.

There are 2 later wood sleepers named Omaha listed as well, both built by Pullman: a 14 section-1 drawing room sleeper built in 1900, and a 12 section-1 drawing room sleeper built in 1902.

7 stateroom (or compartment) sleeper-observation Sappho was built by Wagner in September 1892 in Lot #78, was later assigned Pullman Plan #3062A, was renamed to Ranger in May 1903, was changed to Plan #3062O concurrently (as a private car), was leased to the government during WWI, and was sold to dealer Hotchkiss Blue & Company (located in Chicago) in October 1921.

Sources:

1. "A Century of Pullman Cars Volume One: Alphabetical List" by Ralph L. Barger (Greenberg Publishing, 1988)

2. "A Century of Pullman Cars Volume Two: The Palace Cars" by Ralph L. Barger (Greenberg Publishing, 1990)

3. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

4. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

5. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: Preserved Wagner Palace Car Company cars.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:46 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:21 pm
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Add former CN #63 - "Canada" to the list of surviving Wagner-built cars.

Built for the Grand Trunk Railway in 1897, Car “Canada” served as Charles M. Hays' business car while he was president of the GTR prior to his death on the "Titanic" in 1912. The car continued in service until the mid-1960's. The sides have been metal sheathed. The interior is basically the original 1890's décor, features a shower (a rare commodity for the period) and a modernized kitchen.

Car was preserved in 1974 by the Canadian Railroad Historical Association and is now on display at Exporail / Canadian Railway Museum.


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 Post subject: Re: Preserved Wagner Palace Car Company cars.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:14 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:12 am
Posts: 654
Location: cheyenne
'Omaha' is indeed plan 3003 as it has the name 'Omaha' stamped in every window well in the clerestory,and you can clearly see the outline of the drawing room walls in one end on the ceilings, she also has the original canvas ceilings in place a much earlier trait , rebuilt by Hicks in 1905 and sold as a Jim Crow car to the C&S, she became C&S 85 then 521. The drawings and measurements plan out exactly to the 1866 'Omaha' and the C&S history from Hol Wagner confirms its former i.d.
photo link below shows the name stamped in each window

http://car57.zenfolio.com/p537189402/e2101abda


Mike Pannell


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 Post subject: Re: Preserved Wagner Palace Car Company cars.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:49 am 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Another Survivor:

12S-1DR sleeper Laconia, built in either January or May 1892* in Lot #85 (Lot number is uncertain), later had Pullman Plan #3065C assigned after takeover on 12/30/1899, renamed by Pullman in 1900 to Ramillies, sold in April 1916 to the Canadian Government Railways, renamed in May 1916 to CGR Ogaki, given a number in June 1920 as CN #1479, still named Ogaki, rebuilt in May 1929 to mountain observation #15097 Mount Resplendent (1st), name removed in circa 1954, sold in January 1974 to Heritage Park in Calgary, Alberta.

*Barger lists May 1892, and Bytown lists January 1892.

Sources:

1. "A Century of Pullman Cars Volume One: Alphabetical List" by Ralph L. Barger (Greenberg Publishing, 1988)

2. "A Century of Pullman Cars Volume Two: The Palace Cars" by Ralph L. Barger (Greenberg Publishing, 1990)

3. Bytown Railway Society list of extant equipment for Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba, 2014 edition (PDF document): http://www.bytownrailwaysociety.ca/images/files/PreservedAB-SK-MB.pdf

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: Preserved Wagner Palace Car Company cars.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:44 am 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Another Survivor:

Intercolonial Railway of Canada coach #95 built in May 1899, renumbered in 1916 to Canadian Government Railways #264, renumbered in May 1920 to CN #4006, to CN "museum train" in 1953, to Canada Science & Technology Museum in Ottawa in June 1967, now listed as a diner (appears to have been changed to such when it became part of the "museum train").

Also:

via6309 wrote:
Add former CN #63 - "Canada" to the list of surviving Wagner-built cars.

Built for the Grand Trunk Railway in 1897, Car “Canada” served as Charles M. Hays' business car while he was president of the GTR prior to his death on the "Titanic" in 1912. The car continued in service until the mid-1960's. The sides have been metal sheathed. The interior is basically the original 1890's décor, features a shower (a rare commodity for the period) and a modernized kitchen.

Car was preserved in 1974 by the Canadian Railroad Historical Association and is now on display at Exporail / Canadian Railway Museum.
Built in 1897 as GTR Canada, to CN #96 (1st) in July 1925, renumbered in December 1930 to #85 (3rd), renumbered in February 1938 to #54 (2nd), renumbered in July 1940 to #71 (2nd), renumbered in May 1956 to #63 (2nd), renumbered in February 1974 to museum car #15158, to the Canadian Railway Museum/Exporail in September 1974.

Sources:

1. Bytown Railway Society list of extant equipment for Ontario, 2014 edition (PDF document): http://www.bytownrailwaysociety.ca/images/files/PreservedONT.pdf

2. Bytown Railway Society list of extant equipment for Quebec, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, and Newfoundland & Labrador, 2014 edition (PDF document): http://www.bytownrailwaysociety.ca/images/files/Preserved-QUE-NB-PE-NS-NL.pdf

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

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