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 Post subject: Old Pueblo Trolley Update...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:16 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:54 am
Posts: 742
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Progress continues at Old Pueblo Trolley in Tucson, Arizona on all fronts. Our single truck Brill continues to make progress-most of the body and interior work is completed. The electronic converter remains the one major system that has not been completed to date.

Our Motor Bus Division continues to make progress with the overhaul of our TGH-3102, Old Pueblo Transit Company No. 135. All of the major mechanical and body work has been completed and the coach is undergoing repainting. Work is being started on other coaches in the collection. Saturday, November 4th saw a first for our group-we had two coaches on display at separate events. Our partially completed 1946 Ford (Tucson Rapid Transit No. 50) was displayed at the Cops and Rodders car show (the largest automobile show in Southern Arizona). Our 1938 Model 1204 Yellow Coach (Warren Bisbee Bus Lines No. 8) was exhibited at a transportation themed event sponsored by the Tucson Children's Museum.

Progress continues on the completion of shop facilities at our new location in South Tucson. We have ideas for the possibility of establishing a new street railway line connecting the City of South Tucson with the Tucson city center and plan to continue working with the City of Tucson to introduce vintage streetcar service on the Sun Link line.

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 Post subject: Re: Old Pueblo Trolley Update...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:27 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:45 pm
Posts: 251
I have had an inquiry for casting more Brill 79E parts from the patterns we built 10 years ago. OPT acquired a set of the journal boxes but did not participate in the side frame casting call. If we do another casting, y'all might want to get in on it if there are any future plans for 557.

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 Post subject: Re: Old Pueblo Trolley Update...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:18 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5260
Location: southeastern USA
Thanks Andy, please keep us in the loop.

Electronic converter?

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 Post subject: Re: Old Pueblo Trolley Update...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:21 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2124
Location: Northern Illinois
Dave wrote:
Electronic converter?


Weren't we talking about three phase industrial motors and Variable Frequency Drive control a while back?

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Dennis Storzek


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 Post subject: Re: Old Pueblo Trolley Update...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:45 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:54 am
Posts: 742
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Dennis Storzek wrote:
Dave wrote:
Electronic converter?


Weren't we talking about three phase industrial motors and Variable Frequency Drive control a while back?


What we are doing is building a solid state converter. I have not been involved in that project, but it may well be the variable frequency drive. This is required to step the voltage down from the 750V DC used by Sun Link to a usable 600V DC. There are other matters that will have to be negotiated with the City of Tucson. At this point, we are not anticipating transit type operations as the City will most likely require each stop served to have an ADA compliant wheelchair lift located at the stop (the car is too small to accommodate an on board lift). When we last examined that issue, the estimated cost to provide a lift for each stop (not including construction of a storage container) was $10k.

As far as future streetcar projects are concerned, we will at some point rebuild the Osaka car and will begin restoration of the Huntington car that will represent the Douglas Street Railways. However, those projects are extremely long term. We are in the midst of two coach restorations-Tucson Rapid Transit No. 50 is mechanically complete and has been repainted but lacks windows and an interior. Warren Bisbee Bus Lines No. 1 is approximately 2/3rds complete but requires at least an additional $40k to complete.

Another historic first was the return of Warren Bisbee Bus Lines No. 8 to Bisbee, Arizona in June for the Copper City Classic vintage baseball tournament. That trip marked the first time that No. 8 had been to Bisbee since its retirement in 1951. We were invited by the Friends of the Warren Ballpark to exhibit the coach at the ballpark during the tournament. Warren Ballpark is owned by Cochise County and is the oldest continually operating commercial ballpark, opened in 1909. The bus was transported to and from Bisbee by one of our members (hauled on a vintage Freightliner). The local school district was kind enough to permit us to store the bus and truck in their secured bus yard. They also offered us the services of their mechanics if needed (fortunately they were not) and permitted the locals to view the coach while in the yard. On the Friday prior to the tournament, several of our members met at the bus yard and drove the coach to various locations in Bisbee and Warren. Several photographs were made at locations that we had identified in historic photos of the bus and the drive was recorded on video. The bus was also photographed with the current Bisbee Bus. Unfortunately, due to limitations on time, we have not had an opportunity to post those on the website yet.

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"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."- Conductor Nimrod Bell, 1896


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 Post subject: Re: Old Pueblo Trolley Update...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:52 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5260
Location: southeastern USA
Wouldn't a resistor do that? Interesting.......

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"Techies never minded eating bits and jots of their work. They were grit and grease inside and out and could turn a pile of junk into a magical kingdom."

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 Post subject: Re: Old Pueblo Trolley Update...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:06 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:17 am
Posts: 162
Location: New York
I found your web site, interesting history... It sounds like the success of the modern Tuscon Streetcar spelled the end of the museum operation.

http://www.oldpueblotrolley.org/future.htm

Is there any serious talk of re-establishing a museum streetcar operation again?

-otto-

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Rochester & Genesee Valley Railroad Museum, Rochester, N.Y.


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 Post subject: Re: Old Pueblo Trolley Update...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:00 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:54 am
Posts: 742
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Otto Vondrak wrote:
I found your web site, interesting history... It sounds like the success of the modern Tuscon Streetcar spelled the end of the museum operation.

http://www.oldpueblotrolley.org/future.htm

Is there any serious talk of re-establishing a museum streetcar operation again?

-otto-


Actually, what happened is that we actually succeeded at our original goal-bring back streetcars to Tucson. So yes, we accomplished our intended goal and just incidentally put ourselves out of business on the original route. We are now proposing a couple of new routes that would permit passengers to transfer to the Sun Link system without actually connecting to it. One route would connect the City of South Tucson to central downtown and the other would service a new urban park.

Initially, the plan was to operate the historic cars on the new Sun Link system and that remains the plan for Prescott and Mount Union Railway No. 1. However, we have not made any decisions on whether additional cars will be modified for that purpose. We are having to construct panel track to permit us to move the car out of the car barn and onto the Sun Link track for testing, as we were not provided with a switch. We are working to advance testing as quickly as possible as the City will be changing contract operators in the next year and we want to get the car operational while we have an operating company that is interested in having a heritage car operation.

Another possible option is a heritage bus operation. If additional streetcar lines are not considered feasible, a heritage bus route network could be done. Our coach of choice would be the TGH-3102 as that model was operated by Old Pueblo Transit and we could obtain a few vehicles for that purpose. At any rate, if we do either option, ADA accessibility will be something that we will have to address.

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"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."- Conductor Nimrod Bell, 1896


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 Post subject: Re: Old Pueblo Trolley Update...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:40 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:05 pm
Posts: 668
Location: MA
Dave wrote:
Wouldn't a resistor do that? Interesting.......

No


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 Post subject: Re: Old Pueblo Trolley Update...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:36 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:54 am
Posts: 742
Location: Tucson, Arizona
RCD wrote:
Dave wrote:
Wouldn't a resistor do that? Interesting.......

No


Correct. Not only does the voltage have to be stepped down, the equipment has to be able to compensate for voltage spikes of up to 1,000+ volts that may be generated when other cars on the line enter into regenerative braking. It is quite complex and requires one off, custom solid state electronics.

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"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."- Conductor Nimrod Bell, 1896


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 Post subject: Re: Old Pueblo Trolley Update...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:28 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5260
Location: southeastern USA
Aha. The other cars...... interesting the difficulties encountered mixing modern and historic equipment.

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"Techies never minded eating bits and jots of their work. They were grit and grease inside and out and could turn a pile of junk into a magical kingdom."

Andrea Hairston


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 Post subject: Re: Old Pueblo Trolley Update...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:33 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:54 am
Posts: 742
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Dave wrote:
Aha. The other cars...... interesting the difficulties encountered mixing modern and historic equipment.


Yep. During peak service, there are six cars on line. IIRC, they only use the air brakes to make the final stop. Most of the braking is done by the motors. If all six cars are in some phase of braking at the same time...well, you get the picture. A lot of voltage is going back into the line. Of course, had the city gone with the existing industry standard, there wouldn't have been an issue. Some bright spark decided to go with the somewhat odd 750v.

At the moment, the electronics have not been completed. Once they are completed, we will be testing the components. Hopefully it will work. If not, then it's back to the literal drawing board. Such is the price of being a pioneer.

Now, if you really want to see how good your operator is, give them a fully loaded car and stop it at the intersection of North Fourth Avenue and Congress Street. The gradient where the car has to stop is eight percent. Some of our cars probably couldn't do it. The Brill will because it's single truck with both axels powered. Really a challenge when you have cars right behind you. A good operator can do it without rolling back or slipping, but it's a challenge.

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"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."- Conductor Nimrod Bell, 1896


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 Post subject: Re: Old Pueblo Trolley Update...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:12 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:52 pm
Posts: 108
Location: Pittsburgh
“Of course, had the city gone with the existing industry standard, there wouldn't have been an issue. Some bright spark decided to go with the somewhat odd 750v.”

Actually, 750 volts DC is the current industry standard for new LRT and streetcar operations. That is unless you’re in Seattle, where the light rail uses 1,500 volt DC, the modern streetcars use 750 volts and the trackless trolley buses use 600 volts DC. I’m not a Double-E, and don’t even play one on TV, but my understanding is that the higher voltage is reduces power consumption.

When Pittsburgh upgraded their trolley system to LRT standards, the new cars were designed for 750 volt operation, but temporarily ran on 600 volts in deference to the remaining PCC cars. Once the last of the PCCs were retired, the substation voltage was cranked up to 750 volts. Hence, any heritage streetcar operation in Pittsburgh (and many other cities with light rail) would face the same hurdles you have in Tucson. Your experiment is therefore of broad interest and likely a good seminar for some future Rail Heritage Alliance conference.

/s/ Larry
Lawrence G. Lovejoy, P.E.


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 Post subject: Re: Old Pueblo Trolley Update...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:22 pm 

Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:50 pm
Posts: 6
What is going to happen to 4608?


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 Post subject: Re: Old Pueblo Trolley Update...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:33 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:54 am
Posts: 742
Location: Tucson, Arizona
ttcfan4476 wrote:
What is going to happen to 4608?


No plans at the moment. If we eventually build a new line, hopefully it will have provisions for operating single end cars. The car is presently stored on temporary track inside the building, so it's safe from vandals and the elements.

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