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 Post subject: Re: One Derrick “Newly” Preserved & Two “Preserved” Derricks
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:19 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 3752
Location: Maine
Not to mention, the donors gave the cranes up for preservation, rather than to see them go to scrap in the first place.

That being said, while we don't like it, further transparency should be brought into play. If there was a solid reason for scrapping them, the preservation community that supports VMT should be made aware. If this was just to replace somethings with something else, and perhaps less historic, accountability should be call up.

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 Post subject: Re: One Derrick “Newly” Preserved & Two “Preserved” Derricks
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:33 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:18 am
Posts: 473
Location: Wall, NJ
The reality is that VMT owes none of us an explanation. And, as seen here, the idea of “preserved” is indeed fluid and dependent on current board members of what ever organization we may each have an interest in. I learned some time back that once you donate an item to a non-profit you really give up any control of that item in the long term. As far as the IRS is concerned, you have indeed given up control. Period.

As a case in point, I ride past the old Pine Creek RR here in NJ and see the CP&W combine now rotting away. A lot of money was donated to turn that car into a handicap car, to include the donation of the lift and hold downs. The car itself had been donated and thousands of hours of work applied to the rebuild. Its perfectly within the right of the Board to allow this rot to happen. Its their choice to make. Their mogul is another case in point. And we can’t forget Pemberton who allowed hard feelings between members of the board and the town to result in the scrapping of some key pieces of equipment. In both cases, there is little the membership, nor those who donated the items, can do to change the direction the Board took. Stories like this abound, no doubt, across the country. VMT is not alone here.

Personally, I avoid donating any hardware or artifact to any non-profit as a result of my experiences on both sides of the management fence. I either want cold hard cash or, in one case, I sold the item for a $1 but have an agreement that I will get the item back if certain conditions are not met. The exception to my rule is Rick Rowland’s Youngstown Steel Heritage Foundation.

There is another side here. I have seen some large donations made by people who then never check up on the organization or the item they donated. Even with leases, the owner often times is a no show.

Again, its a shame here that two cranes are now lost. But there may be a back story here. And in truth, as an observer, volunteer, or previous owner who donated an item, you essentially have no say in a situation like this. Its just as bad as a volunteer who perhaps put thousands of hours into a project, just to see it trashed by other members or a board who changes direction. Again, another reason I no longer volunteer. Remember, as a volunteer, even someone like Mr. Glueck, its not your locomotive, coach, crane, etc. If you as a volunteer left tomorrow, the project may die, may be scrapped, may be given away, or, yes, it may move forward.

It would be best to learn from this situation and perhaps build off my comments with regard to protecting an item that had been donated, to protecting the hours one may have put into a project, and to attracting new doantions and volunteers.

J.R. May


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 Post subject: Re: One Derrick “Newly” Preserved & Two “Preserved” Derricks
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:45 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:34 pm
Posts: 166
I saw an old photo earlier today and I have since had a bizarre theory. What if the N&W derrick was scrapped solely to have a matching VGN one for the #135? It's rare, one of a kind and fits more closely with the museum's mission of having an expansive state collection. Likewise I assume it was better for VMT to do away with them in secret then let the whole community aware of their actions. Sometimes we are forced to make hard choices we're not proud of even if we are aware they will have profound consequences upon us. Will NS no longer solicit donations to Roanoke in light of this or any museum for that matter, I doubt it but that's not my call.


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 Post subject: Re: One Derrick “Newly” Preserved & Two “Preserved” Derricks
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:34 pm 

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 8:35 pm
Posts: 203
I think what really bother folks like me and John T. is they scrapped them without trying to offer them to another museum. Maybe they did, but so far I don't know that. It would have been nice if at least some of the parts could have been saved, they even scrapped the builder's plates ????
I don't understand the trade either; two for one ? The 1919 surely had the most history with the steam era, why destroy it ?
The VMT has done some impressive things so I want to give them the benefit of the doubt here. It pains people like John T. and others like us who have a LOVE for wrecking cranes and locomotive cranes. We can't understand the LACK of interest amongst are fellow railfans ! They are complex machines, every bit as much as locomotives, and, if they are self propelled they are LOCOMOTIVES !!!!
Please open your minds and appreciate them ! That OHIO CRANE they own, former PRR was a streamlined crane designed and built in Bucyrus, the crane that followed is of a Wellman design. There are very few OHIO's left with that style of carbody, I hope it survives.

Kevin K


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 Post subject: Re: One Derrick “Newly” Preserved & Two “Preserved” Derricks
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:38 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 3752
Location: Maine
BOOM! Mr. May, I could go on with a tiresome rant regarding no longer volunteering, but I won't. The hobby is full of people who claim to love the preservation and enjoy the older equipment, then say, "I won't be involved any longer". It's no just a hobby, it's a cause. Hell, it's a fight. When you withdraw, you no longer have any say, and you leave it to others to shoulder the burden.

Back to the cranes.

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 Post subject: Re: One Derrick “Newly” Preserved & Two “Preserved” Derricks
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:02 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:18 am
Posts: 473
Location: Wall, NJ
Mr. Glueck, before potentially going into a tirade, perhaps if you did a search of the interchange for my name you might see what I have accomplished over the past ten years or so as an individual, not as a volunteer of a specific organization. A locomotive that I was a partner on is now in a museum in Arizona which I am quite proud of. A caboose in South Jersey has a coat of paint on it and was not scrapped by the town that owns it. A wooden coach has a new home in Minnesota that had been in PA. A 1912 electric locomotive has a safe home in Ohio due to a chunk of money I provided. An N6b is now coming back to life here in NJ which I am a part of and partially funded not to mention busted my ass working on to move it. And I have come up with several successful grant applications for various organizations.

My rule of thumb is that I will help friends, i will work with friends, I will fund certain efforts, I will help write a grant application on occasion. I am a doer, not an arm chair quarter back, not one to screw around with the usual volunteer crapola you see so often today in so many organizations. I paid my dues in that regard, never again. I have over 40 years experience in this arena, I think I know what I am talking about. Success is not measured by what 501c one “belongs” to. Its measured by what one accomplishes. Over the past ten or 15 years I have accomplished more than most so called volunteers.

The actions of the VMT as seen within this topic ranks high on my list as to why I avoid such organizations whether with my time or my cash.

Good nite, Mr G.

J.R.


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 Post subject: Re: One Derrick “Newly” Preserved & Two “Preserved” Derricks
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:20 am 

Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:29 am
Posts: 46
Location: Michigan
In following up Richard's "BOOM!" to Mr. May...

After carefully deciphering John Taubeneck’s wrecker construction list, it can be derived that NW 51425 construction number 12003 was
the 5th Type Z 250-ton wrecker fitted with Industrial Brownhoist’s newer style “B” boom in 1948.


The first wrecker fitted with a style “B” boom was NW 51423 c/n 11776 in 1945.
This particular crane was also IB’s first new diesel powered wrecker.

The second crane equipped with a type “B” boom was Frisco 99025 c/n 11963 in 1948.

Chicago Great Western X-250 c/n 11964 was the third crane built with the “B” boom in 1948.

The 4th wrecker delivered with the type “B” boom was NW 514924 c/n 12002 also in 1948.

The attached photo was screen captured from eBAY showing an Industrial Brownhoist sales brochure illustrating
the two different boom styles offered at the time for the Type Z 250-ton capacity crane.

Note the Saginaw River can be seen in the background of the steam powered crane picture.

John


Attachments:
IB Sales Brochure.jpg
IB Sales Brochure.jpg [ 157.61 KiB | Viewed 832 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: One Derrick “Newly” Preserved & Two “Preserved” Derricks
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:44 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 3752
Location: Maine
I stand by my earlier comments.

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 Post subject: Re: One Derrick “Newly” Preserved & Two “Preserved” Derricks
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:34 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 1:33 pm
Posts: 286
Location: Oroville, CA
That catalog picture could be a print out of the American Flyer S gauge train catalog! Now I know which prototype A C Gilbert used. If it's any consolation, I have about 4 of these "preserved" in S gauge--takes a lot less room, and easier to move around!

What bothers me is that this "trade" doesn't seem to follow the "Standards of Museum Practice" that I THOUGHT any major museum would follow. Does the AAM threaten membership for not following the agreed upon standards? Or is it just a convenient document or "guidelines"? We haven't heard anything from the museum, and I cannot believe they don't read the Interchange.

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Help save the last overnight steamboat, Delta Queen!
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 Post subject: Re: One Derrick “Newly” Preserved & Two “Preserved” Derricks
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:46 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 148
Location: Orrville, OH
Shame that. If they had to go to scrap, I know we probably could have used some bits & pieces off that Z for our own restoration or for spares. Oh well...

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 Post subject: Re: One Derrick “Newly” Preserved & Two “Preserved” Derricks
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:58 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8403
Location: Baltimore, MD
David Dewey wrote:
What bothers me is that this "trade" doesn't seem to follow the "Standards of Museum Practice" that I THOUGHT any major museum would follow. Does the AAM threaten membership for not following the agreed upon standards? Or is it just a convenient document or "guidelines"?


Go survey how many railroad, or any transportation, or even ANY, museums actually have membership in the AAM. The vast majority appear to have membership in ATTRM, but not necessarily AAM unless things have changed dramatically.

According to Wikipedia (WARNING: this essay depends on a single source for its data, and should be held as suspect):
Quote:
Museum Accreditation in the United States is a lengthy process whereby a museum is recognized as adhering to best standards in the field by the American Association of Museums in terms of budget, preservation, and conservation, among other criteria. Fewer than 10% of American museums are so accredited. One reason for this is that, while institutions such as colleges and universities are overseen by the Department of Education, there is no government body, such as a Department of Art, Culture, and Technology, that would oversee museums and their accreditation.


Unlike institutions of higher education that are ruled ineligible for Federal financial tuition assistance, Pell grants, etc.--and thus a ready source of revenue guarantee--if they lack accreditation, museum accreditation may be seen by many museums as bringing with it little in the way of financial or other reward for the often substantial hurdles necessary.

As it turns out, neither the VMT nor the O. Winston Link Museum are AAM members. Who is in Roanoke? The Taubman Museum of Art and the Eleanor D. Wilson Museum at Hollis University. Now, how many of you just said "Who??" My point.

There seems to be no rhyme or reason to rail museums and AAM membership. The WP/Feather River Museum at Portola, Ca. is a member, but not the California State RR Museum. The Phoenix Trolley Museum is a member, but not the Arizona Railway Museum nearby. The Historic Railpark Museum in Bowling Green, Ky. (which is now advertising "escape room" cabooses and rail cars on its website home page) is a member, but not the esteemed Hagley Museum in Delaware. The Twin Cities Model RR Museum in Saint Paul, but not the B&O Railroad Museum. The Toledo & Indiana Railway Museum in Wauseon, Ohio (?), but not the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. Steamtown but not the Seashore Trolley Museum.

At the risk of totally derailing this thread, is AAM membership like the NRHS in the railfanning field--everyone assumes everyone's a member but "no one" really joins?


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 Post subject: Re: One Derrick “Newly” Preserved & Two “Preserved” Derricks
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:27 pm 

Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 2:46 pm
Posts: 156
Que Sera Sera !
We really could have used two axle sets from either of those scrapped wreckers for IRMs Bucyrus model 160-17 1/2 wrecker. Same size bearings . I would have easily paid 4 Gs for choice pick . Too bad we missed the boat .
That Virginia Big Hook they saved is a great looking machine with them roller bearings and all !


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 Post subject: Re: One Derrick “Newly” Preserved & Two “Preserved” Derricks
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:56 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:09 pm
Posts: 305
M Secco wrote:
Que Sera Sera !
We really could have used two axle sets from either of those scrapped wreckers for IRMs Bucyrus model 160-17 1/2 wrecker. Same size bearings . I would have easily paid 4 Gs for choice pick . Too bad we missed the boat .
That Virginia Big Hook they saved is a great looking machine with them roller bearings and all !


You might want to get in touch with the scrap yard...The way I understand it is the cut the booms off and the rest will be done at a later date..


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 Post subject: Re: One Derrick “Newly” Preserved & Two “Preserved” Derricks
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:09 am 

Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 2:46 pm
Posts: 156
Thanks Nova 55 , I'm on it .


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 Post subject: Re: One Derrick “Newly” Preserved & Two “Preserved” Derricks
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:57 am 

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:30 am
Posts: 99
Good luck, I hope you're able to make a deal and salvage some components.


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