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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:05 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:22 pm
Posts: 216
Pegasuspinto wrote:
I don't have any 'positive' confirmation but I am about 95% sure the last passenger killed was also a railfan. He at least used to be in IT. He was also a convicted child porn offender. So maybe some uncomfortable moments coming up....


This popped in to my Facebook feed, with a headline typical of the Houston Comical: http://www.chron.com/seattlenews/articl ... 445593.php

CD


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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:58 am 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1354
Inward and outward facing cameras are critical to accident investigations. How reliable are they in preserving data in collisions and other accidents where the cameras are subject to impact and fire?


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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:40 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:07 am
Posts: 548
Pegasuspinto wrote:
I don't have any 'positive' confirmation but I am about 95% sure the last passenger killed was also a railfan. He at least used to be in IT. He was also a convicted child porn offender. So maybe some uncomfortable moments coming up....


See

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/19/us/a ... ngton.html

Bob H


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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:53 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8864
Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
Ron Travis wrote:
Inward and outward facing cameras are critical to accident investigations. How reliable are they in preserving data in collisions and other accidents where the cameras are subject to impact and fire?

The standard old joke is that "If they can make airplane black boxes indestructible even after a plane crash, why don't they just make the whole plane out of that material?" The answer, of course, is that such a plane could never get airborne.

My understanding is that the absolute latest technology available--solid-state memory with no moving parts--can be made "bulletproof, bombproof, fireproof, shockproof, etc." to the point where the cockroaches will have the video as the last survivors on the planet. And locomotives don't have weight issues like planes do.


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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:39 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:01 pm
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Location: SouthEast Pennsylvania
The National Transportation Safety Board has complained about the lack of secure remote storage for data collected from the front of locomotives involved in fires.


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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:41 pm 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1354
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
Ron Travis wrote:
Inward and outward facing cameras are critical to accident investigations. How reliable are they in preserving data in collisions and other accidents where the cameras are subject to impact and fire?

The standard old joke is that "If they can make airplane black boxes indestructible even after a plane crash, why don't they just make the whole plane out of that material?" The answer, of course, is that such a plane could never get airborne.

My understanding is that the absolute latest technology available--solid-state memory with no moving parts--can be made "bulletproof, bombproof, fireproof, shockproof, etc." to the point where the cockroaches will have the video as the last survivors on the planet. And locomotives don't have weight issues like planes do.


From the news I heard, the NTSB seems to imply that because the cameras in the #501 derailment have been damaged, recovery of the data is not a sure thing. As you say, I would expect these cameras to be practically indestructible, plus I would expect the data to be continuously backed up to remote sites as it is collected by the cameras.


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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:08 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2226
I would think damaged in the way you couldnt pull the device and read back the data, video, if on hard drives or on thumb drive technology you could pull that out and put it in an operational unit. Hard drives today are pretty rugged and if they are smart, they would use a seriously rugged hard drive design. Even if the arm is damaged you can pull the disc and put it in an operational hard drive. The data can be there, even if its been glitchied up.
There are recovery softwares to get data back.

NKP 765 has ATS on it, I don't know if they have it activated now but it certainly was in use on the NKP and other major lines. (i know because I saw it closeup 8-P)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermitt ... train_stop

ATS would be very useful preventing this accident.

The cameras would have been running at the point of the accident, its moot after the engine left the rails, we should see clearly what happenned.


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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:25 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2226
I ran into this doing a dig

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2hFFA5z_LY

Not to make this political but I have noticed a lot of things going on around Trump taking backward steps in things.

This accident looks human error, the major rule about running your train is knowing your territory. Only the camera views may say exactly what which is what I want to see.


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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:39 am 
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Posts: 737
Location: MA
dinwitty wrote:
Lincoln Penn wrote:
Not to start a war, but is there a good reason we preservation-focused folk are discussing this unfortunate incident?

Seems it's being discussed ad infinitum on many other boards.

Just wondering.


When things like this happen we will talk about it, there are plenty of other threads out there for your interest.
Right now I am more waiting for any more info from the investigation. In the 50's there was train stop mechanism at red signals, if you pass it, it knocks the train in emergency.
Maybe we need a reduce speed mechanism like that and you dont need PTC.
Did you even read the post above yours before making that comment? They literally link a YouTube video that has that a system that slows down to train from the 1950s.


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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:11 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 591
PMC wrote:
No PTC. I think it is clear that the state rushed to put the line in service as cheaply as possible.

Turns out I was a bit off: the state was rushing to put the line in service before the end of 2017 to receive all of the stimulus funds they had been granted years ago, which required them to complete construction by the end of the year. They still could have waited until the PTC was ready next year but decided to open it anyway:

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-ne ... was-ready/

The state is now saying the Point Defiance Bypass will remain closed until PTC is in service:

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-ne ... -in-place/


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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:54 am 

Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:46 pm
Posts: 69
PTC is not in use by Amtrak on the other route either. Why should they have waited to use the new route? It's not like they gave up a safety feature to do it.

PMC wrote:
PMC wrote:
No PTC. I think it is clear that the state rushed to put the line in service as cheaply as possible.

Turns out I was a bit off: the state was rushing to put the line in service before the end of 2017 to receive all of the stimulus funds they had been granted years ago, which required them to complete construction by the end of the year. They still could have waited until the PTC was ready next year but decided to open it anyway:

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-ne ... was-ready/

The state is now saying the Point Defiance Bypass will remain closed until PTC is in service:

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-ne ... -in-place/


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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:05 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 591
pwkrueger wrote:
PTC is not in use by Amtrak on the other route either. Why should they have waited to use the new route? It's not like they gave up a safety feature to do it.


Because the old GN upon which Amtrak has been operating previously has been in service continuously for over 100 years and new crews were gradually trained to operate on it, supervised by experienced crews, whereas the old NP had been out of service for decades and none of the current Amtrak crews had apparently been down it prior to a few weeks ago. This is from the first article I posted:

"One area that may get scrutiny is the extent of crew training that Amtrak employees received before taking passengers on the rerouted tracks. Railroad workers used to receive more training, and union officials have been in an ongoing struggle with railroads to invest in more practice runs for crews that are assigned to new routes... NTSB member Bella Dinh-Zarr said Tuesday that crew members were trained on the route in the past two weeks but that officials would be examining how training was conducted. She said investigators were still waiting to interview the engineer and a conductor who was with him in the cab, both injured in the crash, and another crew member."

Overmod wrote:
This particular curve is apparently at the bottom of a couple of miles of almost 2% downgrade; as a poster on another list said 'a bad place to lose situational awareness'.


Especially for a green crew.


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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:30 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3375
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Although pretty horrific to read, this account by a passenger on the train--and his commentary about the media and other things--may be of interest here.

https://transitsleuth.com/2017/12/21/th ... erailment/


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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:01 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2226
J3a-614 wrote:
Although pretty horrific to read, this account by a passenger on the train--and his commentary about the media and other things--may be of interest here.

https://transitsleuth.com/2017/12/21/th ... erailment/


Thanx for that, good read. I hope NTSB finds marks on the rails and track and the potential object on the track. New track, built tough for sure, old track would have been mangled around. I rode the Illinois Central new extension on the old Pullman cars, the old track was lumpy, once we hit the new track a cup of coffee would not even ripple, it was -that- smooth. Give it time lumps may start, but if they maintain it properly, it should never wear.

Recent news report said they did not plan on rerouting this curve as being too expensive. If they want to do something they should put in an advanced timed stop signal, then proceed at 30 mph.

A museum could set up an ATS demonstration, maybe go as far as a PTC if they can.


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 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:22 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 2529
NTSB Conducts Initial Review of Amtrak Train Recorders
12/22/2017

​WASHINGTON (Dec. 22, 2017) — The National Transportation Safety Board released Friday details gathered from the locomotive event data recorder and inward- and outward-facing cameras on Amtrak Cascades passenger train 501 that derailed Monday in DuPont, Washington.

The lead locomotive’s event data and video recorders were successfully downloaded with the manufacturer’s assistance and processed in the NTSB’s lab in Washington, D.C. An initial review of the final portion of the accident sequence revealed the following information, which is preliminary and subject to change as the investigation continues:

Inward-facing video with audio captured the crew’s actions and their conversations. A forward-facing video with audio captured conditions in front of the locomotive as well as external sounds.
The crew was not observed to use any personal electronic devices during the timeframe reviewed.

About six seconds prior to the derailment, the engineer made a comment regarding an over speed condition.
The engineer’s actions were consistent with the application of the locomotive’s brakes just before the recording ended. It did not appear the engineer placed the brake handle in emergency-braking mode.

The recording ended as the locomotive was tilting and the crew was bracing for impact.

The final recorded speed of the locomotive was 78 mph.
A preliminary report detailing the facts and circumstances of the crash developed in this early stage of the investigation will be available on the NTSB website in the coming days.

The entire investigation is expected to last 12-24 months.


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