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 Post subject: IC 2-6-0 #3719
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:12 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:20 pm
Posts: 487
The IRM steam team announced a month ago that the museum's Illinois Central 2-6-0 will get a cosmetic makeover. Great!

It surprised me to read that the loco was built in 1900. I didn't realize it was that old.

Question: What are some giveaways, clues or spotting features that tell you this IC steam locomotive was built at the turn of the century? I ask because I am not knowledgeable enough to spot them.

Image below by Tim Fennell. Source: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=4815030
Image

The IC 3719 ended its career as Bevier & Southern 109.
Image below by J. Parker Lamb. Source: http://www.railphoto-art.org/collection ... roup-two/#!
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 Post subject: Re: IC 2-6-0 #3719
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:25 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:34 pm
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Very little of the original engine remains. It would have been much rebuilt by a prosperous road like the IC. The power reverse is not original, and the pony wheels would have been spoked. The steel cab is probably not original. But look at those rods. The symmetric tapered ends are an older, forged design. And of course, inside, Stephenson valve gear was probably obsolete on main line roads after 1910.

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 Post subject: Re: IC 2-6-0 #3719
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:42 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:10 pm
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Notice also that the locomotive was retrofitted with economy valves. (Should that be capitalized, as Economy Valves?)


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 Post subject: Re: IC 2-6-0 #3719
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:12 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
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Location: Northern Illinois
The fact that it was built as a "D" valve engine means it was built before superheating became universally popular in the decade before WWI... of course as was just pointed out, the engine was superheated, and changed to piston valves with the Economy Valve retrofit kits.

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 Post subject: Re: IC 2-6-0 #3719
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:22 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:45 pm
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There are a number of photos of various era IC 2-6-0 steamers on the Dons Depot website, Don Ross. A few have views of them almost original.
http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr856.htm

Bart Jennings


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 Post subject: Re: IC 2-6-0 #3719
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:02 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:20 pm
Posts: 487
Thanks guys.
I guess the wheel arrangement itself should have clued me. Per steamlocomotive.com, the 2-6-0 was among the earliest designs:
"More than 11,000 Moguls were built between 1860 and 1910."

See how little I know about steam?


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 Post subject: Re: IC 2-6-0 #3719
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:49 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5275
rock island lines wrote:
Thanks guys.
I guess the wheel arrangement itself should have clued me. Per steamlocomotive.com, the 2-6-0 was among the earliest designs:
"More than 11,000 Moguls were built between 1860 and 1910."

See how little I know about steam?


r.i.l. -

The built amount of 2-6-0's you quoted is probably accurate. However, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that at least some examples were constructed AFTER 1910. Anyone know for sure?

Les


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 Post subject: Re: IC 2-6-0 #3719
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:41 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:05 pm
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I see just three things that say 'old' - the keyhole boiler, Stephenson valve gear, and, as S.H. pointed out - the tapered rods. As a note, practically all rods after about 1850/55 were forged - even the most modern lightweight RB twin style. The 'old' part is the taper.

There were moguls built after 1910, although they dwindled significantly after ten-wheelers and Consols came along. For general info, there are two domestic moguls shown in the 1922 Cyclopedia, for a logger (AD&N110, 18x26, 50", Lima) and a short line (Kewaunee, Green Bay & Western 38, 19x26, 56", ALCo), and just one in the 1930 edition (GB&W 56, 19x26, 57", ALCo). There would have been a few others for domestic service and there were probably quite a few for export (mostly narrow gage) well into the 20s as there was still a large export business (think primarily Central/South America and Cuba). There is a standard gage mogul in the 1930 export section (Central Cuba 6, 19x24, 50", Vulcan). There are no domestic moguls in the 1941 edition but one export 5' gage (Panama RR 704, 18x26, 63", ALCo), one standard gage (Persian/SPSR 302, 16x22, 46", BLW) and a few narrow gage versions. Since the Cyclopedia is supposed to represent American practice, I'd guess the number of moguls built for domestic use went to less than a handful after 1930 and they were non-starters by 1940.

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 Post subject: Re: IC 2-6-0 #3719
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:11 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:34 pm
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Les Beckman wrote:
However, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that at least some examples were constructed AFTER 1910. Anyone know for sure?

Image
I can tell you this diminutive Mogul was built in 1914, Davenport #1478. (I've long tried to track down what happened to it when the MI&L quit in 1930; it was sold to a dealer in Galesburg IL but I haven't a clue whether it was resold or, more likely, scrapped.)

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 Post subject: Re: IC 2-6-0 #3719
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:48 am 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:54 am
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Location: Tucson, Arizona
Another dead giveaway of a locomotive's age is often the cab window pattern or shape. Many first generation steel cabs had arched side windows.

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 Post subject: Re: IC 2-6-0 #3719
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:54 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
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Location: Northern Illinois
TrainDetainer wrote:
I see just three things that say 'old' - the keyhole boiler, Stephenson valve gear, and, as S.H. pointed out - the tapered rods. As a note, practically all rods after about 1850/55 were forged - even the most modern lightweight RB twin style. The 'old' part is the taper.


All those things say the design is old, but only the tapered rods say that the engine is actually old. The problem is, there was always some market for a small, light, simple, non-superheated loco for industrial or shortline use. Train detainer points out some examples, and I can think of more; case in point is the Baldwin "stock" design logging Prairies. Tuskeegee 101 at IRM is a good example; "keyhole" boiler (narrow firebox between the frames), built as a "soak" with slide valves, if it had slightly bigger drives and lost the trailing truck it could be a sister of the IC mogul, yet it was built in 1924.

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 Post subject: Re: IC 2-6-0 #3719
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:32 pm 

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Location: southeastern USA
Even Glover Machine Works built moguls into the 1920s.

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 Post subject: Re: IC 2-6-0 #3719
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:46 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:04 am
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Looks like she received a lot of upgrades over the years. The previously-mentioned Economy valves and accompanying superheater conversion, steel (or at least steel-sheathed) cab, Bettendorf-style freight car trucks underneath what is almost certainly a larger-than-original tender, just to name a few.

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 Post subject: Re: IC 2-6-0 #3719
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:24 am 

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Location: South Carolina
The Southern Pacific had some fairly big and modern 2-6-0’s built as recently as 1930: http://espee.railfan.net/sp_steam_m-21.html

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 Post subject: Re: IC 2-6-0 #3719
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:44 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:14 am
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Would the crosshead design also date it? It seems that style of crosshead started dissapearing after a certain point.

As a side note, Augusta RR 2-6-0 300 was built by Alco in 1926 with slide valves and walschaerts valve gear. It also was supplied with arch bar trucks on the tender. When did builders stop using arch bar trucks?


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