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 Post subject: Re: Journal Packing
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:37 pm 

Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:29 pm
Posts: 12
I sent you a PM, Ill make a video some time of prepping and using raw wool waste in journal bearings. The big key is tying the waste then soaking/drying the waste before use.


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 Post subject: Re: Journal Packing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:34 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 227
Location: Orrville, OH
jayrod wrote:
I also found an AAR Lubrication Manual, January 1970 addition. This issue does not contain info on packing with waste, only pads. If anyone has an interest, I'll scan and post it online in PDF format for easy download.

I've requested permission from the AAR to make the manual available for preservationists since it's long retired and they may give the OK (it's likely still protected under copyright). I'll post back with their yea or nay.

_________________
Eric Schlentner
ORHS
http://www.orrvillerailroad.com


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 Post subject: Re: Journal Packing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:09 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:39 pm
Posts: 11
Back in 2012 we had an underframe built for tank car AOX 930, which became PSPX 813 and then back again. We found the last lubricator vendor in the US somewhere, but I can't find their name. We bought 5 x 9 wedges from the Strasbourg RR so that might
be a place to ask. Also if you need journal oil (still used on diesel locomotive suspension bearings, DC motors), we bought a 5 gallon pail from Interlube Corporation. My old employer, Phillips 66 still makes it but only sells it in quantities 55 gallons and up. Tom Birkett


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 Post subject: Re: Journal Packing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:47 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:15 am
Posts: 483
Still trying to find the diagram, but looking through the archives, here is what I posted back in 2009:

------

You can use the extra heavy 24# or was it 28# cotton mop heads as a temporary replacement (based on suggestions from here about a year ago). It worked great for the bearings under the P&R 910 we just moved to the Ct Eastern RR Museum. I talked with many wool yarn and thread factories and distributors but could not find a source for Untreated long strand wool waste (smaller than 1000-3000 pound orders). Best I could find was a source for dyed wool waste, unfortunately when they dye the wool they add an anti-stain compound which prevents wicking of oils, which is good for cloth but horrible for journal packing.

The 4-1/4 x 8 bearings took 1.5 or 2 mops each (I forget now). I used the ones that had binding in the middle and the ends. I first cut the mop heads in half (through the binding in the middle where they mount to the handle) and soaked them for a week in Lucas cylinder lube (it is a plain oil, with anti-rust additives, without the of the surface adhesion enhancer additives that clog the capillary action of the cotton). I used 1 gallon per 5 gallon pail, could have used more as the pail was dry when I packed the journals and I had almost no oil on the rubber gloves. As I placed them in the pail I poured the oil onto each layer and twice that week I inverted the pail, so any oil that settled to the bottom, would pass though the cotton and soak in if there were still any dry patches.

Before I did the packing I first removed the brasses and cleaned the axle ends with fine emery cloth, and wiped them down with Kroil and paper towels to get all the rust powder and sanding grit. Then I coated the bearing surface with engine assembly lube, figured the stickiness of the assembly lube wouldn't pollute the packing enough to worry about, but wanted to make sure there was oil for the first time it rolled.
***Warning*** do not use sand paper or emery cloth on the babbit surface, and it will be close to impossible to get the crystals out of the surface. If you must clean this surface lightly use a wire wheel or a curved metal scraper.

When I packed the journal cellars, I folded the mop heads so that the cut and looped ends were at the center of the bottom layer (1/4 of the length from each end folded under). This was to prevent the axle from being able to pick up an end and push it into and under the brass. As it was over a year ago, I forget if the journal was deep enough that I needed to place one lengthwise along the bottom of the cellar. To pack it I made a packing iron and coated the forked working end with brass so it would not scratch the axle. The packing needs to be tight and should not extend past the end of the axle. After It was packed I added more oil to the bottom and splashed it down both sides of the axle since the packing was so dry. IIRC I used about 3-4 gallons of the Lucas to do all 8 bearings.

It worked so good that after we got the car off the trucks, to place it on to the trailer, the trucks rolled with two men pushing without straining. After we put her back on her trucks, she practically rolled on her own (a.k.a.: no noticeable drag unlike some other cars we have) when we coupled up to her with the trackmobile to bring her into the museum and to her parking spot.

If anyone finds a good source for long strand wool waste, please let others know as it is almost impossible to get pads (journal pad sewing machine was down at both Hooper and the other place [I forget their name, could be using the same supplier] when I was starting the project), so more museums will be looking for wool waste in the not to distant future to maintain their bearings. I was surprised how easy it was to pack the journal, other people always made sound like some tricky labor intensive job, maybe they just never tried doing it. You just need to be careful and take your time.

So far we have not noticed any problems, (not that they have moved her much, probably 2 miles for the trucks and 1 mile for the coach), but the axles are immediately wet with oil when we start to push her. Also after the trucks had sat for 6 months there was no sign of the bearing surfaces rusting.

Not sure if the Lucas is good for a long term solution as Interlube (http://www.interlubecorporation.com/railroad.asp) still makes Journal Guard, which is the correct oil for the pads and packing.

Unless we can find a source for the wool waste, I would feel confident using the mop heads for the next car, but with the Journal Guard oil instead of the Lucas.

Hope this helps,

Rich Cizik
MoW Foreman
Blacksmith Shop Co-Head
P&R 910 Move project head
Ct Eastern RR Museum
Willimantic, Ct 06226
http://www.cteastrrmuseum.org


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 Post subject: Re: Journal Packing
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:46 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 227
Location: Orrville, OH
Clyde Putman wrote:
The Friends of the C&TSRR used Hooper twice last in 2017. They ARE hard to get ahold of, I thing rather than leaving a message we just kept calling until a real person answered.

Clyde - Any idea what they cost? If not, I'll try contacting Hooper. I'm going to have to budget some money for at least six pads for 6-1/2" x 12" bearings.

Cleaning out a boxcar, I found a box of what I think are Southland pads for 5-1/2" x 10". Haven't measured them yet. And I found a box of Hennessy Products Sealwell lid gaskets and a couple 5-1/2" AR-12 rear seals. Kinda like Christmas in January.

I haven't yet heard back from AAR for permission to copy and distribute the 1970 Lubrication Manual.

I'll still need wool waste for some other equipment.

_________________
Eric Schlentner
ORHS
http://www.orrvillerailroad.com


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 Post subject: Re: Journal Packing
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:59 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:51 pm
Posts: 98
Clyde Putman wrote:
Gord M:
You said that wool waste "works well if properly done"
Any advice on how to do it?

I like that idea as a backup plan to Hooper, with the added advantage that we won't have to worry about getting the right size pads.

-Clyde Putman
Volunteer with the Friends of the Cumbres and Toltec Scenic RR


A.A.R. published manuals on recommended practice for doing this and most major railroads also published journal packing manuals that closely followed A.A.R. practice. Basically, you have to form a plug or back roll to under the journal against the dust guard. It is best explained by pictures but generally, you want the waste to surround the underside of the journal to just below the centerline with loose ends tucked under so you don't get a waste grab. It was also general practice to soak the waste in journal oil, then let it drain on a screen before packing it.


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 Post subject: Re: Journal Packing
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:08 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:51 pm
Posts: 98
crij wrote:
Still trying to find the diagram, but looking through the archives, here is what I posted back in 2009:

------

You can use the extra heavy 24# or was it 28# cotton mop heads as a temporary replacement (based on suggestions from here about a year ago). It worked great for the bearings under the P&R 910 we just moved to the Ct Eastern RR Museum. I talked with many wool yarn and thread factories and distributors but could not find a source for Untreated long strand wool waste (smaller than 1000-3000 pound orders). Best I could find was a source for dyed wool waste, unfortunately when they dye the wool they add an anti-stain compound which prevents wicking of oils, which is good for cloth but horrible for journal packing.

The 4-1/4 x 8 bearings took 1.5 or 2 mops each (I forget now). I used the ones that had binding in the middle and the ends. I first cut the mop heads in half (through the binding in the middle where they mount to the handle) and soaked them for a week in Lucas cylinder lube (it is a plain oil, with anti-rust additives, without the of the surface adhesion enhancer additives that clog the capillary action of the cotton). I used 1 gallon per 5 gallon pail, could have used more as the pail was dry when I packed the journals and I had almost no oil on the rubber gloves. As I placed them in the pail I poured the oil onto each layer and twice that week I inverted the pail, so any oil that settled to the bottom, would pass though the cotton and soak in if there were still any dry patches.

Before I did the packing I first removed the brasses and cleaned the axle ends with fine emery cloth, and wiped them down with Kroil and paper towels to get all the rust powder and sanding grit. Then I coated the bearing surface with engine assembly lube, figured the stickiness of the assembly lube wouldn't pollute the packing enough to worry about, but wanted to make sure there was oil for the first time it rolled.
***Warning*** do not use sand paper or emery cloth on the babbit surface, and it will be close to impossible to get the crystals out of the surface. If you must clean this surface lightly use a wire wheel or a curved metal scraper.

When I packed the journal cellars, I folded the mop heads so that the cut and looped ends were at the center of the bottom layer (1/4 of the length from each end folded under). This was to prevent the axle from being able to pick up an end and push it into and under the brass. As it was over a year ago, I forget if the journal was deep enough that I needed to place one lengthwise along the bottom of the cellar. To pack it I made a packing iron and coated the forked working end with brass so it would not scratch the axle. The packing needs to be tight and should not extend past the end of the axle. After It was packed I added more oil to the bottom and splashed it down both sides of the axle since the packing was so dry. IIRC I used about 3-4 gallons of the Lucas to do all 8 bearings.

It worked so good that after we got the car off the trucks, to place it on to the trailer, the trucks rolled with two men pushing without straining. After we put her back on her trucks, she practically rolled on her own (a.k.a.: no noticeable drag unlike some other cars we have) when we coupled up to her with the trackmobile to bring her into the museum and to her parking spot.

If anyone finds a good source for long strand wool waste, please let others know as it is almost impossible to get pads (journal pad sewing machine was down at both Hooper and the other place [I forget their name, could be using the same supplier] when I was starting the project), so more museums will be looking for wool waste in the not to distant future to maintain their bearings. I was surprised how easy it was to pack the journal, other people always made sound like some tricky labor intensive job, maybe they just never tried doing it. You just need to be careful and take your time.

So far we have not noticed any problems, (not that they have moved her much, probably 2 miles for the trucks and 1 mile for the coach), but the axles are immediately wet with oil when we start to push her. Also after the trucks had sat for 6 months there was no sign of the bearing surfaces rusting.

Not sure if the Lucas is good for a long term solution as Interlube (http://www.interlubecorporation.com/railroad.asp) still makes Journal Guard, which is the correct oil for the pads and packing.

Unless we can find a source for the wool waste, I would feel confident using the mop heads for the next car, but with the Journal Guard oil instead of the Lucas.

Hope this helps,

Rich Cizik
MoW Foreman
Blacksmith Shop Co-Head
P&R 910 Move project head
Ct Eastern RR Museum
Willimantic, Ct 06226
http://www.cteastrrmuseum.org


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